Are privates that don’t offer merit aid still enrolling the best students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

If you look at the number of high schools in America vs the number of students who apply to Harvard, it’s pretty clear that not even the #1 student at every high school in America is applying.

DCUMlandia is still buying into the myth that Ivy League admissions have been a competition against the most elite students in the country. It was never true. It’s always been the top 10% or so from specific wealthy enclaves competing against themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

This is part of why legacy admissions isn't going anywhere. Your best customers are your existing customers.

[Anonymous]

Another consideration is that a lot of us sending our kids to private college now are using 529 money that could have tripled if invested in stocks over the past 18 years. But going forward parents may not be sitting on the same kind of gains, just as total cost of attendance approaches 100k per year

[Anonymous]

Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

You’re close but missing an important nuance. This is another example of DCUM downward mobility sour grapes.

I grew up middle class in flyover country. I was at the top of my HS class and I didn’t know anyone who even applied to an Ivy School. And I am 100% sure no one attended one in any of the graduation classes I was around for. It just wasn’t on anyone’s radar, because of the expense relative to State Flagship U. Even if they would have qualified for aid, it was just out of reach.

Now OP clearly didn’t grow up in a community like that. Where she’s from, the best kids applied to the best schools and, if they got in, attended. The sour grapes stems from the fact she cannot give her kids that which she had growing up. It’s a very difficult thing to accept.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

Look at the McKinsey drop down menu for campus recruiting on their website. Tons of schools on there that they’d never touch 20 years ago. Talent is more spread out now.

[Anonymous]

The best colleges don't have to resort to merit to bribe the best students to attend.

As far as the McKinsey recruiting issue, it's not so much that talent is more spread out, it's that employers now realize that talent has always been spread around, and if you want a diverse group of employees, you need to recruit at a range of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

What this thread doesn't tell you is that it's not unusual for ivy kids to turn down full-rides from state schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

Even in the 1990s there were people who turned down Ivies due to cost versus cheaper schools or financial aid at lower ranked schools. At the same time the share of the Ivy student body that was unhooked kids from professional families who could just pay the tuition or make it work with a bit of financial aid was the dominant demographic, not the minority. That has changed with the student body increasingly skewed to both ends of the spectrum - either genuinely wealthy or on full financial aid. Which is why, in a weird way, in their attempt to make the schools less elitist, they've also reinforced the elitism for the wealthier portion of their student body.

As several posters commented, state schools like UMCP used to be shrugged at but are now highly desirable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The best colleges don't have to resort to merit to bribe the best students to attend.

As far as the McKinsey recruiting issue, it's not so much that talent is more spread out, it's that employers now realize that talent has always been spread around, and if you want a diverse group of employees, you need to recruit at a range of schools.

I think it’s actually that specialization has become more important to clients, so they have to add schools with certain top programs to get the kind of specialized talent they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The best colleges don't have to resort to merit to bribe the best students to attend.

As far as the McKinsey recruiting issue, it's not so much that talent is more spread out, it's that employers now realize that talent has always been spread around, and if you want a diverse group of employees, you need to recruit at a range of schools.

Employers have always known talent has always been spread around. The elite colleges never had anything like a stranglehold. But the "elite" firms that used to specifically narrow their recruiting to now look at a bigger range of schools is telling - it means the Ivy mystique brand isn't what it used to be. After all, you mention diversity, but who has been the most aggressive in their pursuit for this ever so ill-defined diversity goals? The Ivies. They have the beau ideal diverse student body for the elite firms to happily restrict their recruiting to, but apparently not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The best colleges don't have to resort to merit to bribe the best students to attend.

As far as the McKinsey recruiting issue, it's not so much that talent is more spread out, it's that employers now realize that talent has always been spread around, and if you want a diverse group of employees, you need to recruit at a range of schools.

I think it’s actually that specialization has become more important to clients, so they have to add schools with certain top programs to get the kind of specialized talent they need.

I agree.

The need for those with strong STEM backgrounds has resulted in elite employers--such as McKinsey--expanding their recruiting base.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

Even in the 1990s there were people who turned down Ivies due to cost versus cheaper schools or financial aid at lower ranked schools. At the same time the share of the Ivy student body that was unhooked kids from professional families who could just pay the tuition or make it work with a bit of financial aid was the dominant demographic, not the minority. That has changed with the student body increasingly skewed to both ends of the spectrum - either genuinely wealthy or on full financial aid. Which is why, in a weird way, in their attempt to make the schools less elitist, they've also reinforced the elitism for the wealthier portion of their student body.

As several posters commented, state schools like UMCP used to be shrugged at but are now highly desirable.

Perhaps reinforcing the elitism was always the intent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer OP’s question, schools that offer merit aid will outperform in an environment where full retail price has become borderline ridiculous even for those who can afford it. They will get the best and the brightest and eventually become the schools with the strongest student bodies (which will even attract students who are indifferent to cost). Need blind financial aid will be a problem esp for schools below the Ivy tier. Merit aid schools will scoop up all those super qualified donut hole kids (whose numbers grow every year). Smart need blind schools will start initiating merit aid programs fast.

It was good to see F&M make that switch this year. Would like to see it next tier up.

Did they? Good for them. Last year it was the only school that did not offer DC a dime. It made the decision to turn it down easier for sure.

I started another thread a couple of days ago listing the schools with the highest tuition--Franklin & Marshall was #1 on the list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

You’re close but missing an important nuance. This is another example of DCUM downward mobility sour grapes.

I grew up middle class in flyover country. I was at the top of my HS class and I didn’t know anyone who even applied to an Ivy School. And I am 100% sure no one attended one in any of the graduation classes I was around for. It just wasn’t on anyone’s radar, because of the expense relative to State Flagship U. Even if they would have qualified for aid, it was just out of reach.

Now OP clearly didn’t grow up in a community like that. Where she’s from, the best kids applied to the best schools and, if they got in, attended. The sour grapes stems from the fact she cannot give her kids that which she had growing up. It’s a very difficult thing to accept.

Yes, this. DH and I have done quite well, especially over the last decade. We have/live(d) in higher SES neighborhoods, but pretty modestly (not big renos, no luxury cars, etc). DH grew up UMC in a higher end suburb in Midwest and I grew up working class and rural. The only friend who seems to begrudge is the one who grew up in an affluent family on East coast. Money went a lot further then so while she will inherit something, she has never lived in the manor she did growing up after leaving home and what she inherits will not replicate that. While her career success came later in life, she is doing fairly well for herself in her field. But I can tell there is some resentment there, sometimes barely concealed.