Are privates that don’t offer merit aid still enrolling the best students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

It is messed up, very messed up, children of ordinary professionals (as opposed to corporate high fliers) cannot really hope to attend college as a full pay student. Such students used to be the backbone of private college attendance. In real terms costs were like half what they are now a generation ago. 25k/yr was a lot in the 90s but doable.

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

So what is the number? Again, this is about Ivy League vs. State...that is the entire premise of the thread. Best I can estimate is that at about $350k or above. Is it unreasonable that you have to pay $85k vs. $50k in-state at UVA (yes, that is UVA total COA in-state for McIntire, Engineering, etc.)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

What are you talking about? They did a takedown episode on Weiss.

Who did?

The Books Could Kill podcast…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

No income level. Fair has nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

It's affordable to anyone who made it their #1 priority. You didn't, and you absolutely cannot stop your teeth-gnashing and triyng to make that everyone else's problem. If your kid is so worthy that is is huge injustice, take out parent plus loans.

Not true. Some people do not make enough to ever save enough to pay these exorbitant tuitions, whether or not education is their #1 priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

So a teacher married to a cop in Fairfax county should have been able to save 200k per kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

So a teacher married to a cop in Fairfax county should have been able to save 200k per kid?

At Harvard a family making $160k with 2 kids in college would pay $16k a year in tuition according to their NPC. Yes I think it’s reasonable to ask them to save for that, if paying for Harvard is their #1 priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

And I'm saying you're wrong. You are equating not saving to lack of discipline, prioritizing other things, etc. And that is simply NOT true for the vast majority. It's certainly not true for us. We have saved since birth, at the sacrifice of many things. And still will not be able to finance it. We shouldn't have to take those loans when the costs of college are the problem.

As for your "middle class gets lots of aid" I know very few -VERY few- who received anything.

And your "shut out" in quotes is offensive. These families -like mine when we get that point will be- are ACTUALLY shut out of career tracks and opportunities at the top schools simply b/c they fall on some random financial spectrum where these schools say you shoudl be able to bankroll $85K/year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

So what is the number? Again, this is about Ivy League vs. State...that is the entire premise of the thread. Best I can estimate is that at about $350k or above. Is it unreasonable that you have to pay $85k vs. $50k in-state at UVA (yes, that is UVA total COA in-state for McIntire, Engineering, etc.)?

Yes. And I would say it is unreasonable for anyone to pay this. These costs have far outpaced wages and ability to save for most families. And it's unfair to say that some get to go, some don't simply on basis of ability to pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

And I'm saying you're wrong. You are equating not saving to lack of discipline, prioritizing other things, etc. And that is simply NOT true for the vast majority. It's certainly not true for us. We have saved since birth, at the sacrifice of many things. And still will not be able to finance it. We shouldn't have to take those loans when the costs of college are the problem.

As for your "middle class gets lots of aid" I know very few -VERY few- who received anything.

And your "shut out" in quotes is offensive. These families -like mine when we get that point will be- are ACTUALLY shut out of career tracks and opportunities at the top schools simply b/c they fall on some random financial spectrum where these schools say you shoudl be able to bankroll $85K/year.

So, are the college expected financial contribution calculators not accurate? Someone needs to help us understand what we are missing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

So what is the number? Again, this is about Ivy League vs. State...that is the entire premise of the thread. Best I can estimate is that at about $350k or above. Is it unreasonable that you have to pay $85k vs. $50k in-state at UVA (yes, that is UVA total COA in-state for McIntire, Engineering, etc.)?

Yes. And I would say it is unreasonable for anyone to pay this. These costs have far outpaced wages and ability to save for most families. And it's unfair to say that some get to go, some don't simply on basis of ability to pay.

So it is unreasonable that someone who makes $350k+ has to pay $35k more to attend Harvard vs. UVA in-state? I would be more outraged about the in-state COA for UVA and that the delta is this small.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

But you’re misstating the situation to strengthen your argument. Middle class families get lots of aid. It’s upper middle class families who could afford it if they really made it a priority to save for years, but didn’t do that for whatever reason, who get “shut out” (which just means have to take loans).

And I'm saying you're wrong. You are equating not saving to lack of discipline, prioritizing other things, etc. And that is simply NOT true for the vast majority. It's certainly not true for us. We have saved since birth, at the sacrifice of many things. And still will not be able to finance it. We shouldn't have to take those loans when the costs of college are the problem.

As for your "middle class gets lots of aid" I know very few -VERY few- who received anything.

And your "shut out" in quotes is offensive. These families -like mine when we get that point will be- are ACTUALLY shut out of career tracks and opportunities at the top schools simply b/c they fall on some random financial spectrum where these schools say you shoudl be able to bankroll $85K/year.

You probably don’t know families who got aid at Ivy schools because you, and your friends, are all well-off people pretending to be middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

So what is the number? Again, this is about Ivy League vs. State...that is the entire premise of the thread. Best I can estimate is that at about $350k or above. Is it unreasonable that you have to pay $85k vs. $50k in-state at UVA (yes, that is UVA total COA in-state for McIntire, Engineering, etc.)?

Yes. And I would say it is unreasonable for anyone to pay this. These costs have far outpaced wages and ability to save for most families. And it's unfair to say that some get to go, some don't simply on basis of ability to pay.

Why is that unfair, that only people ready and willing to pay for the most expensive schools in the US, actually get to go there? That’s how it was when I was applying and everyone just knew that was for kids with resources.

The problem isn’t that you can’t pay for Harvard. The problem is that you feel entitled to it. You really believe in your heart anyone who gets in is selected at the most wonderfully worthy person and not letting them go is spitting in their face. Well, get over it. It was never a meritocracy. It isn’t now, it wasn’t then, it was always for the rich kids plus the lucky poor kids who won the Ivy League full ride lottery. Most people have always known this.