Are privates that don’t offer merit aid still enrolling the best students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

It's possible for both Gladwell and Weiss to be trash.

Anyway, I think graduating with a little debt is fine if it means you had a fantastic college experience. I also think it's fine to decide that you'd rather have no debt than a perfect fit.

I know a lot of parents who take their kids on fabulous trips and as a result won't be able to offer as much help with college costs, and that seems like a reasonable choice. I also know people who lived very frugally in order to fund the 529, and that seems fine, too. What doesn't seem fine is parents who made the choice to travel, do home renovations, etc, who are now complaining about how unfair it is that their kid can't afford Dream School, when they could have afforded it if the parents had made different financial choices. Your choices were fine, sir and/or madam. But they were choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

[Anonymous]

My DH went to UVA instead of Princeton 30 years ago because of money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

There is a reason that teachers in Fairfax make so much more than teachers in West Virginia. A family making 175k a year in Fairfax county will have to spend more on housing than a family making the same income in Beckley WVA. That means less opportunity to save, including saving for college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

There is a reason that teachers in Fairfax make so much more than teachers in West Virginia. A family making 175k a year in Fairfax county will have to spend more on housing than a family making the same income in Beckley WVA. That means less opportunity to save, including saving for college

Great...that famly making $175k a year in Fairfax will qualify for likely $50K a year in need-based aid at an Ivy league for a net price of $35k. I don't know how that compares to UVA, but it is a heck of a lot closer, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

There is no definition. At every income level bellow gazillionaire, paying for college is unpleasant. If someone making 90K is asked to pay 30K a year, and someone making 200K is asked to pay 80K a year, either family may find that untenable. But there's no world in which the person with an extra 110K a year is the victim, it's still just a choice to make. At least the higher income family has the choice to send their kid to a public for much less. The 90K family may find in state with room and board is still out of reach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

These are two different questions. It is not important whether it is unaffordable, just that it would create different incentives for a decision. And, there is not really any such thing as "unfair". There is a system of incentives and costs. For some, it makes sense to go to an expensive school that will not be expensive to them, for others it may make more sense to choose a different school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

It's possible for both Gladwell and Weiss to be trash.

Anyway, I think graduating with a little debt is fine if it means you had a fantastic college experience. I also think it's fine to decide that you'd rather have no debt than a perfect fit.

I know a lot of parents who take their kids on fabulous trips and as a result won't be able to offer as much help with college costs, and that seems like a reasonable choice. I also know people who lived very frugally in order to fund the 529, and that seems fine, too. What doesn't seem fine is parents who made the choice to travel, do home renovations, etc, who are now complaining about how unfair it is that their kid can't afford Dream School, when they could have afforded it if the parents had made different financial choices. Your choices were fine, sir and/or madam. But they were choices.

Why is Bari Weiss trash?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

It's possible for both Gladwell and Weiss to be trash.

Anyway, I think graduating with a little debt is fine if it means you had a fantastic college experience. I also think it's fine to decide that you'd rather have no debt than a perfect fit.

I know a lot of parents who take their kids on fabulous trips and as a result won't be able to offer as much help with college costs, and that seems like a reasonable choice. I also know people who lived very frugally in order to fund the 529, and that seems fine, too. What doesn't seem fine is parents who made the choice to travel, do home renovations, etc, who are now complaining about how unfair it is that their kid can't afford Dream School, when they could have afforded it if the parents had made different financial choices. Your choices were fine, sir and/or madam. But they were choices.

+1

CHOICES is the key. Sure some cannot actually afford to save, but for the majority, they made a choice(s) along the way, which is fine, but now you need to live with the choices you made. Nobody is entitled to a T25 education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

There is a reason that teachers in Fairfax make so much more than teachers in West Virginia. A family making 175k a year in Fairfax county will have to spend more on housing than a family making the same income in Beckley WVA. That means less opportunity to save, including saving for college

+1

See also: People who went bankrupt due to medical bills, people with special-needs children, people with parents they have supported, people who lost jobs during recessions and didn't find another for a long time. The list goes on. Personal circumstances.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

Haven't you been reading these boards? There are more than enough bright students to go around.

One outcome may be that parents will learn how to save, starting at birth, instead of depending on the overpayment and generosity of others to fund their merit aid pools. Perhaps also have a family size you can afford the education of.

Some of us do and still cannot afford $85K a year. We had one child. Saved since birth. Bought a small sh@t shack (as in under 1000) square feet in a not so great neighborhood. So, our kid knows they can go to a school we can afford. Simple.

Nothing wrong with that. It's what should happen for all kids. Attend somewhere that's affordable to you. No reason to go into debt beyond the $27K federal max for student loans.

That's beside the point. After working hard, saving, the kids killing themselves in HS . . . they shouldn't have to. It should be affordable for all, not just the rich and the poor. Your condescending lecture on the issue notwithstanding.

It's affordable to anyone who made it their #1 priority. You didn't, and you absolutely cannot stop your teeth-gnashing and triyng to make that everyone else's problem. If your kid is so worthy that is is huge injustice, take out parent plus loans.

You will still be yammering on like this when college costs a million dollars a year.

If it’s only certain private schools with plenty of other options? Yes I will. And if McKinsey only hires from Million Dollar U? Yes I still will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

What are you talking about? They did a takedown episode on Weiss.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

This is the nonsense that gets everyone mad. The definition of donut hole can't change based on personal circumstances...that implies that someone making $1MM a year who decided to own three homes, fancy cars, etc. is donut-hole because of personal "circumstances" and doesn't qualify for need-based aid. Now, if there are no savings because someone had to pay for expensive cancer treatments...we get that, but do schools really not factor something like that into their calculations? If not, then I am absolutely right with you on this whole Donut Hole concept.

Donut hole has to have a specific income definition adjusted for cost-of-living or no one will have any empathy for your situation.

So, I ask again...what income level is "Donut Hole" for the DMV such that a reasonable person would argue that the cost differential between say UMD and an Ivy League (again, OP specifically used Ivy League as a reference point for the theme of this entire thread) is truly unaffordable and unfair.

We have nowhere near to $1 million/year and one starter home. We are most def a donut hole family. And frankly, I don't give a sh-- about your empathy. I give a sh-- about what is reasonable for all families. And shutting out the middle class or upper middle class while allowing rich families and poor families to have a better track for success available to them, is not reasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

Then you should go listen to the absolutely brutal takedown of Gladwell on the podcast If Books Could Kill. They really outted him as a hack.

The podcaster who thinks Bari Weiss has anything useful to say? No thanks.

What are you talking about? They did a takedown episode on Weiss.

Who did?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

I agree. Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that companies should hire from the top 1/3 of any school. I know people here will disagree and I invite you to go watch his talk on this topic.

In almost all situations, the smart, motivated, hard working kids will rise to the top. I'd think it's much easier to do that at a school where you are at 85-90 percentile vs being at a Harvard where everyone is similar smarts and 85% are highly motivated type A personalities. IN reality, most kids will get a better education where they can "rise to the top".

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The NAME of the school matters to a lot of employers. I was in that top of class percentile and graduated with honors from my no name, big midwest university ("first gen" before that was a thing, and that was the only school close to home that I could afford). There was no benefit to that for grad school or for hiring afterwards. None. There is a benefit to the name brand, top schools, whether you want to admit it or not. And to say that the "donut hole" families should be shut out of that just because . . . . well, just because some of you are mean-spirited and revel in putting other people down and keeping them there. . . . it's revolting.