Are privates that don’t offer merit aid still enrolling the best students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

When I graduated from high school in 1980, the mantra was that if you could get into a school, you could find a way to attend. At that time the tuition, room, and board at the NESCAC school I attended cost about $8K. Many of my middle and upper-middle class New England high school classmates went to private schools, as well.

I contributed about $2K/year towards the cost from summer earnings, covered my own books and miscellaneous expenses, took out a student loan for $1500-$2K/year, and my parents paid the rest. They did this for all six of their kids at private schools, paying over time (not in a lump sum) under arrangements with each school. It was a stretch for them relative to what the state flagship would have been, but it was doable, and the modest low-interest student debt we incurred was manageable.

The year I went abroad, the tuition cost $800 because the program was at the European university through an American school. My room and board was $300 a month. My parents saved a lot of money that year relative to what they would have paid for my on-campus costs.

Fast-forward, the same NESCAC school now costs $86K/year. A family like the one I grew up in could never in a million years pull off what my parents did.

Apples and oranges.

Yes, very common. I entered college @ ~$6000/year and graduated at ~$13,000 four years later.

But how did you pull down 2000 in a summer when minimum wage was 3.10 in 1980 and 3.35 starting in 1981? Twelve weeks @ 3.10/hour x 40 hours = $1488. Very few folks i knew were able to land a job for much more than minimum wage but may have also been due to the region of the country.

I worked for more than minimum wage and always two jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

+100

Youngest of 3 siblings and we only applied in-state. Very similar.

And another one here. I went to the OOS flagship that gave me the most merit aid. I was accepted at 5 t20 schools plus that one and it all came down to money. I was bitter AF at the time, not going to sugar coat it, but have nothing but gratitude in hindsight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If what you want to hear and believe is that students at state schools are the best then sure go ahead and believe this. But this looks to be a question begging for a specific answer for the purpose of soothing someone’s feelings. You can be very smart and talented and choose to go to a state school for a variety of reasons.

THIS is why people want to go to top schools. And there are many opinions that track this. And it is why people are disappointed when, despite qualifying for a new or brighter track in life that these schools offer (whether you personally believe it or not), they are priced out for being financially solvent but not rich or poor enough to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

No, because personal circumstances vary among families. A donut hole family is one that neither qualifies for need-based aid nor can afford to pay full price for college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

Haven't you been reading these boards? There are more than enough bright students to go around.

One outcome may be that parents will learn how to save, starting at birth, instead of depending on the overpayment and generosity of others to fund their merit aid pools. Perhaps also have a family size you can afford the education of.

Are you still going to be reciting these lines when annual tuition, room & board hit $200K? $300K?

At what point if any will you see that the issue is systemic and not about individuals' financial discipline?

X a million!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

When I graduated from high school in 1980, the mantra was that if you could get into a school, you could find a way to attend. At that time the tuition, room, and board at the NESCAC school I attended cost about $8K. Many of my middle and upper-middle class New England high school classmates went to private schools, as well.

I contributed about $2K/year towards the cost from summer earnings, covered my own books and miscellaneous expenses, took out a student loan for $1500-$2K/year, and my parents paid the rest. They did this for all six of their kids at private schools, paying over time (not in a lump sum) under arrangements with each school. It was a stretch for them relative to what the state flagship would have been, but it was doable, and the modest low-interest student debt we incurred was manageable.

The year I went abroad, the tuition cost $800 because the program was at the European university through an American school. My room and board was $300 a month. My parents saved a lot of money that year relative to what they would have paid for my on-campus costs.

Fast-forward, the same NESCAC school now costs $86K/year. A family like the one I grew up in could never in a million years pull off what my parents did.

Apples and oranges.

Yes, very common. I entered college @ ~$6000/year and graduated at ~$13,000 four years later.

But how did you pull down 2000 in a summer when minimum wage was 3.10 in 1980 and 3.35 starting in 1981? Twelve weeks @ 3.10/hour x 40 hours = $1488. Very few folks i knew were able to land a job for much more than minimum wage but may have also been due to the region of the country.

I worked for more than minimum wage and always two jobs.

you were lucky. i worked two jobs, but both were minimum wage and neither was over 40 hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

When I graduated from high school in 1980, the mantra was that if you could get into a school, you could find a way to attend. At that time the tuition, room, and board at the NESCAC school I attended cost about $8K. Many of my middle and upper-middle class New England high school classmates went to private schools, as well.

I contributed about $2K/year towards the cost from summer earnings, covered my own books and miscellaneous expenses, took out a student loan for $1500-$2K/year, and my parents paid the rest. They did this for all six of their kids at private schools, paying over time (not in a lump sum) under arrangements with each school. It was a stretch for them relative to what the state flagship would have been, but it was doable, and the modest low-interest student debt we incurred was manageable.

The year I went abroad, the tuition cost $800 because the program was at the European university through an American school. My room and board was $300 a month. My parents saved a lot of money that year relative to what they would have paid for my on-campus costs.

Fast-forward, the same NESCAC school now costs $86K/year. A family like the one I grew up in could never in a million years pull off what my parents did.

Apples and oranges.

Yes, very common. I entered college @ ~$6000/year and graduated at ~$13,000 four years later.

But how did you pull down 2000 in a summer when minimum wage was 3.10 in 1980 and 3.35 starting in 1981? Twelve weeks @ 3.10/hour x 40 hours = $1488. Very few folks i knew were able to land a job for much more than minimum wage but may have also been due to the region of the country.

I worked for more than minimum wage and always two jobs.

you were lucky. i worked two jobs, but both were minimum wage and neither was over 40 hours.

One was 40 hours for a little over minimum wage and the other was a lucrative waitressing job at a high-end restaurant.

If I had time, I also did some babysitting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

Most people are not qualified for admission to, or not admitted to Ivy League schools, so their generosity to $180K households isn't relevant for the vast majority of families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

We're near this number and get no aid instate, and a bit at some of the SLACs that our kid wanted, but not enough to even bring it close to in state

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

Most people are not qualified for admission to, or not admitted to Ivy League schools, so their generosity to $180K households isn't relevant for the vast majority of families.

The whole premise of the thread relates to privates that don't offer merit aid (i.e., only offer need aid).

My understanding was this is limited to a select group of like 15-20 schools...maybe that is my misunderstanding...are there more out there that fall into this bucket?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My kid is turning down an Ivy that’s $85k/year for a full ride at a flagship. According to my kid, they are far from the only one of their classmates making such a decision. Kids talk.

What are the consequences to this as the years go on & so many top students can’t afford elite privates?

It is an intriguing question. The demographics at the elite colleges have changed significantly in the last 20 years and what are the long term implications of this?

There were already kids turning down Ivies for full rides at state universities or just attending a much cheaper flagship honors program in the past. But I can easily see how this would be far more kids now than 20 years ago due to the rise of the donut hole families. I do think that Ivy prestige has steadily weakened over time, they no longer have the perceived lock on the best and brightest, especially as the professional classes now really understands the cost/benefit analysis, and also that Ivy admission is hardly meritocratic and is based on very different factors that have little to do with achievement. And others are less impressed by the behaviors and attitudes of elite college grads, fair or not, especially with cancel culture and the growth of rigid ideological outlooks that these schools have embraced (with some exceptions, like Chicago). Then we do have that there are many more best and brightest chasing after a limited number of spots, which actually means they end up being dispersed among a wider range of schools.

All in all, I am no longer "impressed" when I see an elite college decal on a car. I do think nice kid, bit lucky, and not much more than that. When evaluating candidates, if I notice their college on the resumes, I don't give weight to elite college grads over lesser college grads once above a certain threshold. What they actually did is much more important, along with impression in the interviews. Having said that, the Ivies will still produce genuinely impressive graduates who go on to achieve great things, but this is probably no more than 1/4 - 1/3 of their student body, with the rest not really meaningfully different from comparable students at UVA or College Park or Vanderbilt or whatever.

Where did you get your 1/4-1/3 stat?

FWIW, people have been turning down Ivies due to cost for more than 20 years. This isn't a new phenomenon.

The gulf in price between Ivies & state schools has exploded over the past 20 years. Lots of state schools have frozen tuition or let you lock in your tuition for all four years the year you enroll.

Yeah, but there were still kids with middle class parents turning down the Ivies in the '80s because the parents couldn't afford that tuition. The group may be larger now than then, but this isn't new though may be to you.

True. My brother and I were among them. Also most of the top students at my middle class suburban high school didn't even bother applying to schools they knew they couldn't afford because even the application fee was too much to pay for a lottery ticket.

When I graduated from high school in 1980, the mantra was that if you could get into a school, you could find a way to attend. At that time the tuition, room, and board at the NESCAC school I attended cost about $8K. Many of my middle and upper-middle class New England high school classmates went to private schools, as well.

I contributed about $2K/year towards the cost from summer earnings, covered my own books and miscellaneous expenses, took out a student loan for $1500-$2K/year, and my parents paid the rest. They did this for all six of their kids at private schools, paying over time (not in a lump sum) under arrangements with each school. It was a stretch for them relative to what the state flagship would have been, but it was doable, and the modest low-interest student debt we incurred was manageable.

The year I went abroad, the tuition cost $800 because the program was at the European university through an American school. My room and board was $300 a month. My parents saved a lot of money that year relative to what they would have paid for my on-campus costs.

Fast-forward, the same NESCAC school now costs $86K/year. A family like the one I grew up in could never in a million years pull off what my parents did.

Apples and oranges.

Yes, very common. I entered college @ ~$6000/year and graduated at ~$13,000 four years later.

But how did you pull down 2000 in a summer when minimum wage was 3.10 in 1980 and 3.35 starting in 1981? Twelve weeks @ 3.10/hour x 40 hours = $1488. Very few folks i knew were able to land a job for much more than minimum wage but may have also been due to the region of the country.

I worked for more than minimum wage and always two jobs.

you were lucky. i worked two jobs, but both were minimum wage and neither was over 40 hours.

One was 40 hours for a little over minimum wage and the other was a lucrative waitressing job at a high-end restaurant.

If I had time, I also did some babysitting.

That's fab. We only had one car and no public transit, so my job options were limited to what worked best with the family schedule.

I now insist that we only live in areas with public transit. We are fortunate to have a weekend house and even that can be reached, more or less, by bus/train save the last mile.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

Most people are not qualified for admission to, or not admitted to Ivy League schools, so their generosity to $180K households isn't relevant for the vast majority of families.

The whole premise of the thread relates to privates that don't offer merit aid (i.e., only offer need aid).

My understanding was this is limited to a select group of like 15-20 schools...maybe that is my misunderstanding...are there more out there that fall into this bucket?

Sounds about right. They are not going to start offering merit, regardless of how many threads these folks start on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

Most people are not qualified for admission to, or not admitted to Ivy League schools, so their generosity to $180K households isn't relevant for the vast majority of families.

The whole premise of the thread relates to privates that don't offer merit aid (i.e., only offer need aid).

My understanding was this is limited to a select group of like 15-20 schools...maybe that is my misunderstanding...are there more out there that fall into this bucket?

Not all of the schools that don't offer merit aid are need-blind. In fact, most of them are need-aware, and many (maybe most) do not offer the generous FA to upper middle class families that e.g. Harvard does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this thread feel like sour grapes for those who can not afford to attend the Ivy they are qualified to attend?
Ivy level schools will not ever hurt for students of the highest caliber. There is way more qualified applicants than seats at those schools. If your child can not attend such a highly rated school that is fine and your child will do well wherever they attend but the T30 schools will still have an overabundance of the top qualified students to choose from. Parents have always looked at their children with bias thinking they are more unique than they really are.

+1000

There will also be "donut hole" families who have managed to save/make saving for education a priority. Schools like Harvard make it affordable for families making up to 150-200K. So while your family making 150-200K may not choose to save, there will still be plenty who do, so it will not be all "low income" and wealthy students.

Then again, it's the wealthy students who largely have the means to do the pointy ECs and win national awards, and have tutors to take 13+APs and still get all As. So the wealthy have an easier path to "having the resume for HYPSM

Oh please. Not all donut hold families can save $80/year per kid. Esp in high COLA areas where their jobs are. Between medical, taxes, child care early on, expenses associated with school, car payments (on very basic cars, no suburbans or Teslas here), mortgage (still in our starter home). . . . it's just not possible for two stable paid, but not wealthy, civil servants (non-SES).

So it is sour grapes. That doesn't mean that those families, like us, are wrong.

This. In Fairfax county, teacher and police officers are donut hole.

Can someone put a $$$ amount of income that they define as donut hole?

Go to any Ivy League expected cost calculator. Input a $300k income with $100,000 in a 529, $100,000 in house equity, etc....and every school says they will give you like $25k-$30k (Princeton was highest at like $40k) per year. That is if you only have 1 kid attending...I assume they will give you more with multiple. Again, if you are getting a free ride vs. even a net cost of $50k you will probably take it.

How much do two Fairfax county teachers make? More than $300k?

Are the expected cost calculators lying, or are people defining a donut-hole income as something very high...where no one else would ever define it that high.

Aid starts phasing out at about 150k. I define it as between that number and somewhere in the mid 200s. The number is probably lower in a loc col area, but two teachers living in Fairfax are going to spend a large amount of their income on housing, so even with $180k combined, they won't be able to save like a lawyer in Abingdon making the same salary

But the aid for two teachers making $180k is substantial enough that the price of an Ivy league is equivalent to in-state (may be less)...assuming no in-state merit aid. So, those two teachers will have a tough time paying for any school I guess you are saying.

Most people are not qualified for admission to, or not admitted to Ivy League schools, so their generosity to $180K households isn't relevant for the vast majority of families.

The whole premise of the thread relates to privates that don't offer merit aid (i.e., only offer need aid).

My understanding was this is limited to a select group of like 15-20 schools...maybe that is my misunderstanding...are there more out there that fall into this bucket?

Not all of the schools that don't offer merit aid are need-blind. In fact, most of them are need-aware, and many (maybe most) do not offer the generous FA to upper middle class families that e.g. Harvard does.

Can you give an example of one...just curious the type of school that falls into this category.

OP specifically referenced an Ivy league school that they turned down for an in-state free ride. Though that was really what we were comparing.