UVA McIntire or top 15 school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

[Anonymous]

One kid in Notre Dame Mendoza.
It obviously has more edge than econ in art & science.

One kid EDed to NYU art & science, intended major econ.
Kid likes NYC and NYU.
Stern obviously has more edge, however kid didn't want cutthroat competitive environment shooting for finance.
Planning to major in econ and minor in data science to be more competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

[Anonymous]

For high finance, it's Ivy > Stern > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire.

For consulting, it's Ivy > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire > Stern

Also note that if you're not in the undergrad business schools for Michigan and Virginia, you're dead in the water.
NYU without Stern may still be fine with a quant degree (CS, Math, etc.) due to the location .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For high finance, it's Ivy > Stern > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire.

For consulting, it's Ivy > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire > Stern

Also note that if you're not in the undergrad business schools for Michigan and Virginia, you're dead in the water.
NYU without Stern may still be fine with a quant degree (CS, Math, etc.) due to the location .

based on what?

https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

Let me debunk this myth for you as someone who has worked, and still is, for multiple financial services.  My employer's current CEO graduated from Hamilton College and my current boss is a former graduate from Mississippi state University.  My division has about 60% of former D1 athletes from Clemson, South Carolina, Florida State, and I am pretty sure they didn't graduate at the top of their class, quite on the contrary.  These people have unbelievable work ethics and exceptional social skills.  They all have connections prior to working here.  One of my former bosses graduated with a 3.0 GPA with a degree in communications and he run the highly profitable trading division. 

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

Let me debunk this myth for you as someone who has worked, and still is, for multiple financial services.  My employer's current CEO graduated from Hamilton College and my current boss is a former graduate from Mississippi state University.  My division has about 60% of former D1 athletes from Clemson, South Carolina, Florida State, and I am pretty sure they didn't graduate at the top of their class, quite on the contrary.  These people have unbelievable work ethics and exceptional social skills.  They all have connections prior to working here.  One of my former bosses graduated with a 3.0 GPA with a degree in communications and he run the highly profitable trading division. 

There's a difference between retail banks and investment banks. Take a look at the schools that Goldman Sachs and Lazard recruits associates from. Take a look at the schools that the leadership team at Lazard attended. And look at the same for hedge funds like Citadel and private equity firms like Blackstone.

We aren't talking about Citibank and Bank of America here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

Let me debunk this myth for you as someone who has worked, and still is, for multiple financial services.  My employer's current CEO graduated from Hamilton College and my current boss is a former graduate from Mississippi state University.  My division has about 60% of former D1 athletes from Clemson, South Carolina, Florida State, and I am pretty sure they didn't graduate at the top of their class, quite on the contrary.  These people have unbelievable work ethics and exceptional social skills.  They all have connections prior to working here.  One of my former bosses graduated with a 3.0 GPA with a degree in communications and he run the highly profitable trading division. 

There's a difference between retail banks and investment banks. Take a look at the schools that Goldman Sachs and Lazard recruits associates from. Take a look at the schools that the leadership team at Lazard attended. And look at the same for hedge funds like Citadel and private equity firms like Blackstone.

We aren't talking about Citibank and Bank of America here.

I guess you do have a reading problem and have no idea what you're talking about. You should check on the GS's CEO and where he attended. That's my current employer.

[Anonymous]

https://experience.mcintire.virginia.edu/bs-commerce-admissions-statistics/

McIntire admissions
2017 66%
2018 59%
2019 59%
2020 63%
2021 63%
2022 61%

GPA is around 3.7

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

Let me debunk this myth for you as someone who has worked, and still is, for multiple financial services.  My employer's current CEO graduated from Hamilton College and my current boss is a former graduate from Mississippi state University.  My division has about 60% of former D1 athletes from Clemson, South Carolina, Florida State, and I am pretty sure they didn't graduate at the top of their class, quite on the contrary.  These people have unbelievable work ethics and exceptional social skills.  They all have connections prior to working here.  One of my former bosses graduated with a 3.0 GPA with a degree in communications and he run the highly profitable trading division. 

There's a difference between retail banks and investment banks. Take a look at the schools that Goldman Sachs and Lazard recruits associates from. Take a look at the schools that the leadership team at Lazard attended. And look at the same for hedge funds like Citadel and private equity firms like Blackstone.

We aren't talking about Citibank and Bank of America here.

I guess you do have a reading problem and have no idea what you're talking about. You should check on the GS's CEO and where he attended. That's my current employer.

[Anonymous]

McIntire is highly over rated. There is nothing special about it
compared to any other top 20 undergrad business program.

Columbia and NYU offer better profs and internships.

[Anonymous]

Business professor back.

It is disturbing to view college as a vocational activity instead of focusing on education and experience. The goal of undergrad education is not to get a job on Wall Street or management consulting. Most business professors did not have undergrad business majors. Most top M.B.A. students were not business majors, instead choosing engineering, economics, etc. The large investment banking recruitment programs hire many liberal arts graduates from top schools.

I worked at Goldman Sachs in different jobs, and hired Bachelors graduates with quant and/or technology skills, like engineering majors from Berkeley. In one case, we wanted a Baruch graduate to execute trades because he had worked on the NYSE and understood markets. My boss vetoed him because he could not program computers at all. He would have been unable to download and analyze his daily trades, and he would probably not learn to program on the job.

Management consulting also requires technical skills in something. It might be management accounting, technology, data analysis, or logistics and supply chain management. High school students have a foggy idea of business. For example, most marketing jobs are in industrial marketing. But teenagers think marketing is all about consumer fashion and breakfast cereal. Accountants and actuaries have great careers. A good business education will expose students to all these opportunities.

A good university will offer far more. Your kids might enjoy enivironmental economics or urban housing policy. Or maybe math, science, arts and humanities. Maybe your child will meet successful friends and a spouse.

Furthermore, many people go into business after graduate school. Historically, this was the two-year M.B.A. program. But those programs became too general and diluted. Now specialty masters programs are more popular.

I was surprised at the LinkedIn school rankings. Typically, top M.B.A. business schools did not have undergrad business. Because undergrad programs are often larger than graduate programs, they dominate the LinkedIn rankings. So, you see Georgetown #1 in undergrad investment banking placement. Historically, Georgetown did not have an elite graduate business school. But they have a loyal alumni network and an effective placement office that polishes undergrads for those jobs. There are many investment banking internship programs. Those jobs are prestigious. But investment bankers do not have quant skills. They do not trade or invest. Instead, they are spreadsheet monkeys who work long hours travelling and preparing documents. Yale, Princeton, and Columbia also have strong placement in investment banking, and they don't have undergrad business at all.

https://www.businessadministrationinformation.com/news/top-10-business-schools-according-to-linkedin-rankings

My freshman roommate was a weak student who did not have grades to get into the business major. He transferred schools to graduate with a business degree, and opened up a deli in D.C. after graduating. It quickly failed because he had weak accounting skills and did not realize it had no chance of profitability. Ultimately, he got a masters in social work and is much happier now. He helped my nephew become a social worker.

I hope my daughters study something more rigorous than business, like math/statistics/science/economics. Then they can go into business, technology, health care, or anything but law. I also hope they meet successful partners and give me grandchildren before I die. MIT, Caltech, and Georgia Tech have many potential husbands, which prevents the "hook-up culture".

[Anonymous]

OP, what are your kid's stats and hooks? We'll chance you for a T15.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Business professor back.

It is disturbing to view college as a vocational activity instead of focusing on education and experience. The goal of undergrad education is not to get a job on Wall Street or management consulting. Most business professors did not have undergrad business majors. Most top M.B.A. students were not business majors, instead choosing engineering, economics, etc. The large investment banking recruitment programs hire many liberal arts graduates from top schools.

I worked at Goldman Sachs in different jobs, and hired Bachelors graduates with quant and/or technology skills, like engineering majors from Berkeley. In one case, we wanted a Baruch graduate to execute trades because he had worked on the NYSE and understood markets. My boss vetoed him because he could not program computers at all. He would have been unable to download and analyze his daily trades, and he would probably not learn to program on the job.

Management consulting also requires technical skills in something. It might be management accounting, technology, data analysis, or logistics and supply chain management. High school students have a foggy idea of business. For example, most marketing jobs are in industrial marketing. But teenagers think marketing is all about consumer fashion and breakfast cereal. Accountants and actuaries have great careers. A good business education will expose students to all these opportunities.

A good university will offer far more. Your kids might enjoy enivironmental economics or urban housing policy. Or maybe math, science, arts and humanities. Maybe your child will meet successful friends and a spouse.

Furthermore, many people go into business after graduate school. Historically, this was the two-year M.B.A. program. But those programs became too general and diluted. Now specialty masters programs are more popular.

I was surprised at the LinkedIn school rankings. Typically, top M.B.A. business schools did not have undergrad business. Because undergrad programs are often larger than graduate programs, they dominate the LinkedIn rankings. So, you see Georgetown #1 in undergrad investment banking placement. Historically, Georgetown did not have an elite graduate business school. But they have a loyal alumni network and an effective placement office that polishes undergrads for those jobs. There are many investment banking internship programs. Those jobs are prestigious. But investment bankers do not have quant skills. They do not trade or invest. Instead, they are spreadsheet monkeys who work long hours travelling and preparing documents. Yale, Princeton, and Columbia also have strong placement in investment banking, and they don't have undergrad business at all.

https://www.businessadministrationinformation.com/news/top-10-business-schools-according-to-linkedin-rankings

My freshman roommate was a weak student who did not have grades to get into the business major. He transferred schools to graduate with a business degree, and opened up a deli in D.C. after graduating. It quickly failed because he had weak accounting skills and did not realize it had no chance of profitability. Ultimately, he got a masters in social work and is much happier now. He helped my nephew become a social worker.

I hope my daughters study something more rigorous than business, like math/statistics/science/economics. Then they can go into business, technology, health care, or anything but law. I also hope they meet successful partners and give me grandchildren before I die. MIT, Caltech, and Georgia Tech have many potential husbands, which prevents the "hook-up culture".

Any good college will give you good liberal arts and foundational education, then on top of that, it provides specialty majors.
What makes you think that a BSBA with concentration in finance, analytics, or even marketing is different from BS in Computer science or electrical engineering..
You have a weird bias.

When schools have undergraduate programs(again MIT, UPenn, Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, Emory, Berkely, UMish, Notre Dame, NYU, etc.), it's more valuable than econ in art and Science. That's just a reality.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thank you all for the insights. It's interesting to hear the differing opinions. I do get where the professor is coming from because I was a business major (not accounting), but at a big state univ and not a particularly prestigious one. I always felt like the education was pretty useless and not very rigorous, and whatever company you end up working for would train you anyway. So I get why some people are fans of a liberal arts ed even if you plan to go into "business." I ended up in law so don't know anything about this field. This debate about business undergrad program being more valuable than arts & science is an interesting one that I'll have to explore more.