UVA McIntire or top 15 school?

[Anonymous]

The business prof's link to the LinkedIn school rankings is from 2014 so it is a bit dated.

[Anonymous]

To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the insights. It's interesting to hear the differing opinions. I do get where the professor is coming from because I was a business major (not accounting), but at a big state univ and not a particularly prestigious one. I always felt like the education was pretty useless and not very rigorous, and whatever company you end up working for would train you anyway. So I get why some people are fans of a liberal arts ed even if you plan to go into "business." I ended up in law so don't know anything about this field. This debate about business undergrad program being more valuable than arts & science is an interesting one that I'll have to explore more.

Unless your kid has multiple hooks it is unlikely they'll get into a T15. Being instate your kid may actually have a shot at UVA. What are your kids stats? This whole conversation is worthless without knowing that.

[Anonymous]

Heard gs takes kids from jmu. Do they hide them in a different room, cause they are not top 15

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business prof again: Of course there are good schools like Penn/Wharton and Cornell with undergrad business. Others like Princeton and Northwestern have economics and applied economics with a lot of business overlap. Those students have no trouble getting business jobs.

Northwestern has cold winters. Brown strikes me as a pleasant, liberal arts environment. They have an economics major. I would not want my kid in NYC, but some people would love Columbia. These considerations override any differences in rankings. I would rather have a happy business graduate from UVA than a homesick dropout from an expensive school.

I have been working in financial services for the past twenty five years, the first five years with GS and the past fifteen years with BoA, Carlyle, and Blackstone.  The school where you attended only matters if you don't know anyone there and you still have a big hurdle to climb; however, most of the candidates at those firms already have inside connections.  The reason I got a shot at GS was because one of my best friends' father was a SVP at GS.  I also went to a no name university but I got the job at GS because of the connection.

OP here. I know you're right about the connection. So if we're a family with no connection, does that mean my dc needs to go to Harvard to have a chance?

ugh and my brother graduated with a MATH degree from UVA and then went to a top MBA school a few years later and has been working at all the big banks on Wall Street his entire career. No, the choice is not between Harvard and connections.

Connection and social skills will trump grades and where you attend college. There are many ways to make connections and improve your social skills. Anyone with a college degree can do a finance job, tt is not difficult at all. The key is how to get into the door.

Lol this is flat out false. Where you attend school is how you get into the door for high finance/consulting. And if your school is towards the bottom of the list of target schools, like UVA, then high grades is the key to getting into the door.

Not "anyone" can do the work in high finance and consulting. The work may seem trivial but the amount of work and the high degree of competence in executing it separates those who can do the work and those who can't. Plenty of very intelligent kids who get into the Ivies burn out after a year in Wall Street.

Let me debunk this myth for you as someone who has worked, and still is, for multiple financial services.  My employer's current CEO graduated from Hamilton College and my current boss is a former graduate from Mississippi state University.  My division has about 60% of former D1 athletes from Clemson, South Carolina, Florida State, and I am pretty sure they didn't graduate at the top of their class, quite on the contrary.  These people have unbelievable work ethics and exceptional social skills.  They all have connections prior to working here.  One of my former bosses graduated with a 3.0 GPA with a degree in communications and he run the highly profitable trading division. 

There's a difference between retail banks and investment banks. Take a look at the schools that Goldman Sachs and Lazard recruits associates from. Take a look at the schools that the leadership team at Lazard attended. And look at the same for hedge funds like Citadel and private equity firms like Blackstone.

We aren't talking about Citibank and Bank of America here.

I guess you do have a reading problem and have no idea what you're talking about. You should check on the GS's CEO and where he attended. That's my current employer.

It's so cute that you act as if this is a gotcha.

We're talking about recruitment out of undergrad, not industry recruitment. Your CEO was literally rejected by Goldman out of undergrad.

After graduating, he applied to Goldman Sachs for a two-year analyst position but was rejected

Secondly, Hamilton College is ranked #9 out of all SLACs. Not exactly a mediocre college. Top SLACs (particularly Amherst, Williams) are respected similarly to top universities, particularly top SLACs in the Northeast.

Also, we are talking about front-office analyst/associate roles here, which pay the big bucks. There's plenty of back-office roles at these investment banks that recruit more widely, but they have normal pay ranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

This is exactly correct. There's only so much networking at help and it ultimately depends on some random employee taking a liking (out of whatever reason) and agreeing to pass the resume along for a single company, if the student doesn't have familial or family-friend connections. That does not happen very often in real life.

Meanwhile at top schools, all the companies come to the students. The student can focus on doing well in college or, for the most top ones, just finishing college, and the companies flock to interview the students. That is the difference for high finance and consulting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

This is exactly correct. There's only so much networking at help and it ultimately depends on some random employee taking a liking (out of whatever reason) and agreeing to pass the resume along for a single company, if the student doesn't have familial or family-friend connections. That does not happen very often in real life.

Meanwhile at top schools, all the companies come to the students. The student can focus on doing well in college or, for the most top ones, just finishing college, and the companies flock to interview the students. That is the difference for high finance and consulting.

I guess I just wasted 300K in education for my son at an Ivy. He graduated in May with good grades but without any job offers from any Wall Street firms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

This is exactly correct. There's only so much networking at help and it ultimately depends on some random employee taking a liking (out of whatever reason) and agreeing to pass the resume along for a single company, if the student doesn't have familial or family-friend connections. That does not happen very often in real life.

Meanwhile at top schools, all the companies come to the students. The student can focus on doing well in college or, for the most top ones, just finishing college, and the companies flock to interview the students. That is the difference for high finance and consulting.

I guess I just wasted 300K in education for my son at an Ivy. He graduated in May with good grades but without any job offers from any Wall Street firms.

Recruitment and interviewing does not guarantee employment. It provides a chance that students at less prestigious schools will never get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

This is exactly correct. There's only so much networking at help and it ultimately depends on some random employee taking a liking (out of whatever reason) and agreeing to pass the resume along for a single company, if the student doesn't have familial or family-friend connections. That does not happen very often in real life.

Meanwhile at top schools, all the companies come to the students. The student can focus on doing well in college or, for the most top ones, just finishing college, and the companies flock to interview the students. That is the difference for high finance and consulting.

I guess I just wasted 300K in education for my son at an Ivy. He graduated in May with good grades but without any job offers from any Wall Street firms.

Recruitment and interviewing does not guarantee employment. It provides a chance that students at less prestigious schools will never get.

According to DS, several of his classmates, with similar grades, got offers from Wall Street firms because they know people who work there. DS also graduated but didn't know anyone there so he didn't get any offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the business professor:
I have been at GS for the past five years and Blackstone five years before that.  I can definitely tell you that the work in IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, regardless of the school you attended, if you have some analytical skills. You can major in some liberal arts and take some math classes to build up your analytical skills and you will be fine.  Working at GS is like being in a meat grinder with long and grueling hours and not everyone is cut out for this type of environment.  "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.  I've seen this countless during my time at both GS and Blacktone.

Of course if you have a rich daddy or have great connections, that's the best. Alumi network is great too.
Also we are not talkking about some cases you know or I know.
For average people like us, target schools are the next best thing.

This is exactly correct. There's only so much networking at help and it ultimately depends on some random employee taking a liking (out of whatever reason) and agreeing to pass the resume along for a single company, if the student doesn't have familial or family-friend connections. That does not happen very often in real life.

Meanwhile at top schools, all the companies come to the students. The student can focus on doing well in college or, for the most top ones, just finishing college, and the companies flock to interview the students. That is the difference for high finance and consulting.

I guess I just wasted 300K in education for my son at an Ivy. He graduated in May with good grades but without any job offers from any Wall Street firms.

What major? It's not like Wallstreet or jobless

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What makes you think that a BSBA with concentration in finance, analytics, or even marketing is different from BS in Computer science or electrical engineering.

Short answer: Marketing majors can't do math nor programming.

Long answer: A typical undergrad business education has hardly any business classes in the first two years. Business is not a single subject. So, students must take accounting, finance, marketing, manufacturing or supply chain, organizational behavior, a required business law/antitrust class, perhaps nebulous "strategy", and technology. Maybe some more statistics/econometrics and math optimization. It is a lot of barely related courses. The math requirements for business are lightweight compared to requirements for science and engineering. Business students tend to be pragmatic, not intellectual. So, you might get a good education by taking rigorous math, analystics, and technology courses. But it is also possible to add a bunch of lightweight electives like "The Global Environment". A degree in computer science or engineering is guaranteed to be rigorous and coherent.

Anonymous wrote:When schools have undergraduate programs(again MIT, UPenn, Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, Emory, Berkely, UMish, Notre Dame, NYU, etc.), it's more valuable than econ in art and Science.

Obviously, a business major will be more business oriented than an economics major. But at schools without business majors, the business-oriented students congregate in economics, and they offer electives like financial economics that would ordinarily be in the business school. The difference is not extreme.

Even if you think business is "more valuable", at what cost? The OP wrote about choosing a "Top 15" school instead of UVA McIntire. Presumably that means places like Northwestern, Brown, or Columbia without business majors. For whatever reason, US News ranks UVA #25, and UVA lacks the cachet of those private schools. Some students will find a better fit at UVA, and it is probably much cheaper and closer to home. Again, these are very different schools. But if cost and location are not issues, those private schools are probably better.

Expensive private schools have professors teach, not T.A.'s. Richard Taylor substituted into a Harvard algebra class on Youtube. He is a historically famous mathematician who helped prove the 240-year-old Fermat's Last Theorem. That is what undergrads get at top schools, and it is rare for Nobel-caliber professors to teach undergrad business, especially at state schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Business professor here. Business is a professional field, not an academic one. So, it is possible for an undergrad to get a bad education by selecting unrelated business courses in marketing, finance, organizational behavior, and manufacturing. This is much less likely in Math, English, or Economics.

You only take half your courses in your major, and there is no guarantee that your child will ultimately choose business. So I would put heavy weight on the school. As you surely noticed, most Ivy League schools and top colleges lack a business major. UVA is a good school, but I would strongly consider a school like Northwestern, Brown, or Columbia without undergrad business.

Of course, UVA in-state tuition might be much cheaper, and it might be better for your child to stay closer to home.

Just to debunk this a little - the key is being at a core recruiting school, then your major doesn't matter. I was Econ at UVA and had a full slate of banking superdays, alongside my McIntire friends (other Econ majors recruited alongside them for consulting). Companies do not differentiate once they are coming to campus, at least at UVA.

You don't sound like you know what you are talking about.
I would trust more of the major finance and consulting companies.
They target business majors at schools like MIT, Cornell, NYU, UPENN, Notre Dame, UMich, Berkeley, Emory, CMU, UVA etc. etc.
The trend is top schools are adding Buiness flavored programs
Brown recently added Business Track on it's Econ major.
Vanderbilt added Business Minor to it's Econ major.
Rice recently added undergrad Business major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For high finance, it's Ivy > Stern > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire.

For consulting, it's Ivy > Michigan Ross/Virginia McIntire > Stern

Also note that if you're not in the undergrad business schools for Michigan and Virginia, you're dead in the water.
NYU without Stern may still be fine with a quant degree (CS, Math, etc.) due to the location .

based on what?

https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Penn, NYU, and Michigan. Top 3

[Anonymous]

https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/consulting-target-schools

Harvard, Penn and then Michigan and Yale.