UVA McIntire or top 15 school?

[Anonymous]

Most of this thread is worthless. If your kid wants to do business, UVA McIntire is a great option. If you can find something better, that’s fine too. There are a lot of ways to succeed in life, but some posters seem to think the path is very narrow, which it isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of this thread is worthless. If your kid wants to do business, UVA McIntire is a great option. If you can find something better, that’s fine too. There are a lot of ways to succeed in life, but some posters seem to think the path is very narrow, which it isn’t.

I am with you on that. For those touting T-15, SLAC and IB, MBB etc. Goldman Sachs is firing so many people! You think the poor souls being shown the door aren’t from T-15 and SLAC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, ... with long and grueling hours. "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.

Thanks. Nobody even discussed the quality of the finance education. Instead, they viewed colleges exclusively as places to make job connections.

It's less about access to "connections" and more about OCR options and overall brand.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB and MA, while they are not easy, is not that difficult at all.  Anyone can do this job, ... with long and grueling hours. "connection' will very much trump the school where you attend.

If you kid is legitimately smart at a Top 15 national university or selective liberal arts college, then they can later attend a top M.B.A. program or specialty Masters in Finance program. But if they are not as smart, then maybe they need to get a bachelors in business at some "target recruiting school", make connections in a series of investment banking internships, and work hard instead of smart.

The top 15 national universities and SLACs are targets, moreso than most UG business schools in the country.

[Anonymous]

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Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Northwestern are not really bigger target than UVA McIntire based on this
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Top three are business schools.
It's mixture of business schools and non-business.
They are just different options.

Let me know if anyone has other sources we can reference.
We need to talk at least with some sources rather than pulling stuff out of a$$

The numbers clearly don't tell the entire story and this "ranking" doesn't pass the smell test (except for having Wharton at #1).

For a true tier list of target schools, just dig through old WSO threads for an hour or two.

[Anonymous]

UVA McIntyre is already at no 7 for undergrad business by USNWR. It’s also no 2 by Poet & Quants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVA McIntyre is already at no 7 for undergrad business by USNWR. It’s also no 2 by Poet & Quants.

No, UVA is #5 at Poets and Quants. https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/rankings/best-undergraduate-business-schools-business-school-rankings/

But who cares? They send out questionaires and give extra points for "diversity". If you really want that, then choose Howard University.

[Anonymous]

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most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

How not so??

My IB division has so many ex-D1 athletes that I simply lost count.

My IB division has not many ex-D1 athletes. Some we have work in not so important back office duties.

Eh, they usually get parked in sales.

I get assigned to probably the worst job this year, deciding who to hire for the internship program in both the IB  and trading division.  For '23 internship, there are about 20 internship positions, the deadline is 12/31/2022.  I get this assignment in "name" only because I've already received over twenty emails from different EVPs in the company inquiring about these positions for their alumni D1 athletes.  About 75% of these athletes are not qualified for the internship but it does not matter.  I can not turn any of them down because if I do, I will likely face backlash from these EVPs in the form of future promotion and bonus.  I talk to my former colleagues who work for different employers but in the same field and they all tell me that the same thing happens at their employers, athletes get internship positions over other candidates, regardless of qualifications.

In summary, who you know matters a lot more than the college you attend.

[Anonymous]

I have a son interested in business. Selfish mom wants him to stay close and go to UVA. I think it would probably be better for him to go away to college in Boston or NY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a son interested in business. Selfish mom wants him to stay close and go to UVA. I think it would probably be better for him to go away to college in Boston or NY.

OK ….. are you in-state Virginia. Do you have any idea the difference in $ in after tax dollars that you are speaking if?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UVA McIntyre is already at no 7 for undergrad business by USNWR. It’s also no 2 by Poet & Quants.

No, UVA is #5 at Poets and Quants. https://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/rankings/best-undergraduate-business-schools-business-school-rankings/

But who cares? They send out questionaires and give extra points for "diversity". If you really want that, then choose Howard University.

UVA was no 2 in 2021 for Poets & Quants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a son interested in business. Selfish mom wants him to stay close and go to UVA. I think it would probably be better for him to go away to college in Boston or NY.

Him going to UVA is a fantastic option unless he gets into a far better school in Boston or New York.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a son interested in business. Selfish mom wants him to stay close and go to UVA. I think it would probably be better for him to go away to college in Boston or NY.

Depends what your son wants to be now and after college. The Post College Experience is highly regional in my experience. If your son really wants to live and work in the Northeast after college - maybe do Wall Street Finance or something like that - then going to college in New York or Boston is the way to go. If he would rather be in the Mid Atlantic or Southeast and not into Northeast Finance scene then UVA is the way to go. If don't really know then UVA is a great school and in state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a son interested in business. Selfish mom wants him to stay close and go to UVA. I think it would probably be better for him to go away to college in Boston or NY.

Depends what your son wants to be now and after college. The Post College Experience is highly regional in my experience. If your son really wants to live and work in the Northeast after college - maybe do Wall Street Finance or something like that - then going to college in New York or Boston is the way to go. If he would rather be in the Mid Atlantic or Southeast and not into Northeast Finance scene then UVA is the way to go. If don't really know then UVA is a great school and in state.

What New York schools would you choose over in-state UVA? Columbia, maybe Cornell, maybe Stern? I can't think of anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Northwestern are not really bigger target than UVA McIntire based on this
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Top three are business schools.
It's mixture of business schools and non-business.
They are just different options.

Let me know if anyone has other sources we can reference.
We need to talk at least with some sources rather than pulling stuff out of a$$

Columbia is based in Manhattan and Dartmouth has a major alumni presence on the Street.

Brown and Northwestern is better than UVA in IB, and there's no competition in Big 3 Consulting.
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/consulting-target-schools

You are looking at raw placement data without normalizing for undergrad population. If you do so:

IB:
1. Columbia - 2.15%
2. Dartmouth - 2.22%
3. Brown - 0.93%
4. Northwestern - 0.87%
5. UVA - 0.63%

MBB:
1. Columbia - 1.14%
2. Dartmouth - 1.45%
3. Brown - 0.72%
4. Northwestern - 0.9%
5. UVA - 0.41%

There's no competition between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA for IB. Brown and Northwestern have 38% ~ 47% better placements.

For MMB, no competition again between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA. Brown and Northwestern again have much better placements at 75% ~ 122% better. No competition with Brown or Northwestern in MBB.

DP. You have fallen for the famous computer programming saying - Garbage In Garbage Out (GIGO).
You proved you can do arithmetic and compute percentages and identify greater and lesser! Beyond that your output is garbage because your input is garbage.
Just to point some flaws:
1. Your source for information (whatever it is) isn’t exhaustive. It simply didn’t count every person.
2. You don’t know how many students who got those jobs have familial connections, how many are athletes, how many are Affirmative Action,
3. To compute percentages, you must have used the total number of undergraduate students in graduating year for each academic institution. In which case, state flagship universities have much larger number of undergraduate students than expensive private colleges do. The denominator in your calculations should be the number of students applying for such jobs from each institution, and unless you pulled out of your stinky behind, you can’t have this number. And your number only stinks but it isn’t accurate.

Enough said. Education and degrees don’t result in smarts and critical thinking skills.

1. The source used is the exact same source being used to argue that UVA is equivalent to these other schools in recruitment.
2. I see little relevance here. Being an athlete is irrelevant. AA should be normalized across the schools given they have similar # of URMs. Familial connections is indeed relevant, but moreso for getting the interview, not the job. The number of associates hired at IB/MBB based on family connections alone is minuscule.
3. Which is impossible to retrieve. It's no less accurate than using the non-normalized data and comparing the number of placements from a school with 4,000 students to the one with 18,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
normalizing for undergrad population. If you do so:

IB:
1. Columbia - 2.15%
2. Dartmouth - 2.22%
3. Brown - 0.93%
4. Northwestern - 0.87%
5. UVA - 0.63%

That settles it. If your child attends Columbia, there is only a 97.85% chance of failing in life. But if you go to UVA, there is a 99.37% chance of failing in life. That extra 1.78% should determine your college choice!