Thoughts on Rives or Sutton for APS SB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Nuance" is how "anti" groups attempt to veil their biases. But if you ask certain churches that claim "all are welcome" if they have gay people in leadership roles or if they would perform a wedding for a couple in which one member is nonbinary, you find out the truth pretty fast, assuming you can pry a yes-no answer out of them.

Does Rives think a school's first duty is to the well-being of the student, or should parental preferences outweigh that?

I see it as the other way around. Any attempt at a nuanced answer that isn’t lock-step with the prevailing ideas results in accusations of someone being anti trans/racist/whatever. This is done to shut down any true back and forth conversation & maintain control of the preferred narrative.

At some point, decisions have to be made. So if someone has to vote on whether school staff will preserve confidentiality for a trans student who believes telling their parents would be dangerous to them, should the policy be not to tell the parents, or should the parents' "right to know" trump that?

If a student does not want to change in a particular dressing room, should the school provide that? If a student objects to the presence of someone they consider inappropriately gendered for the space, should the student who objects be provided with another place to change, or should the student they object to be required to change elsewhere?

Discuss it all you want before voting, but you will have to vote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Nuance" is how "anti" groups attempt to veil their biases. But if you ask certain churches that claim "all are welcome" if they have gay people in leadership roles or if they would perform a wedding for a couple in which one member is nonbinary, you find out the truth pretty fast, assuming you can pry a yes-no answer out of them.

Does Rives think a school's first duty is to the well-being of the student, or should parental preferences outweigh that?

Welcoming and inclusive does not mean a church or a person has to give-up the foundational tenets of their faith. Nuance is indeed essential. It's not all or nothing. Everyone can be welcomed into a church community but the faith and teachings of that church will also indicate that not all people get to play all roles. Leadership roles are iffy for me: I think all people should be able to be in the leadership positions. But if a church upholds that marriage is only between a CIS -male and female, that's their perrogative. A couple can be married legally and participate in the church community. They just won't have that marriage recognized by their church. If they disagree with that, they can leave the church. Just because someone, or a church, doesn't grant the full range of entitlements you believe they should doesn't mean they're hypocritcal.

I didn't say they were hypocritical. A private group can set up whatever terms it wants. But someone deciding to attend that church deserves to know whether that church welcomes them wholeheartedly to the life of the church, or if they're welcome on a more limited basis than other members.

The Arlington Turkey Trot is/was sponsored by the Presbyterian Church, which donates some of the proceeds to Young Life. Young Life used to be overtly anti-LGBTQ+ but the optics were bad, so the description of the group has changed. It's dishonest. You don't want gay people having sex, say it.

[Anonymous]

+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Let's have that "different conversation." Do you believe that trans high schoolers should be outed to their parents by their high schools? Even against the students' wishes? And even where the student tells the school that they fear retaliation by their parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Nuance" is how "anti" groups attempt to veil their biases. But if you ask certain churches that claim "all are welcome" if they have gay people in leadership roles or if they would perform a wedding for a couple in which one member is nonbinary, you find out the truth pretty fast, assuming you can pry a yes-no answer out of them.

Does Rives think a school's first duty is to the well-being of the student, or should parental preferences outweigh that?

Welcoming and inclusive does not mean a church or a person has to give-up the foundational tenets of their faith. Nuance is indeed essential. It's not all or nothing. Everyone can be welcomed into a church community but the faith and teachings of that church will also indicate that not all people get to play all roles. Leadership roles are iffy for me: I think all people should be able to be in the leadership positions. But if a church upholds that marriage is only between a CIS -male and female, that's their perrogative. A couple can be married legally and participate in the church community. They just won't have that marriage recognized by their church. If they disagree with that, they can leave the church. Just because someone, or a church, doesn't grant the full range of entitlements you believe they should doesn't mean they're hypocritcal.

No, it just means that faiths that exclude gay people, trans people, women, and others from leadership positions and recognized statuses like marriage aren't "welcoming and inclusive." It's like trying to say: "I believe in civil rights, but let's keep Black people from voting or holding office." The contradiction cuts to the core. Plenty of churches don't discriminate on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, or gender identity for any role or recognition. They exemplify what it means to be, truly, welcoming and inclusive, and to treat every person with equal dignity. They shine a harsh light on the faiths which do otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Always? And how often? If the parents are told and declare that everyone must use a particular pronoun for their child, and the student comes to school and says, "Mommy and Daddy are really mad at me. I wish I could just be Poppy," what then? Do the parents have a right to know? What if you know the parents are fans of reeducation camps for gay kids? Do you still have to tell them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Always? And how often? If the parents are told and declare that everyone must use a particular pronoun for their child, and the student comes to school and says, "Mommy and Daddy are really mad at me. I wish I could just be Poppy," what then? Do the parents have a right to know? What if you know the parents are fans of reeducation camps for gay kids? Do you still have to tell them?

I'm not a teacher, but I'm guessing lots of parents do things at home that you don't agree with. That could be rules on screens, religious views, diet, bedtimes, etc. But fundamentally, these are still ES kids, and yes, I think parents should know what is going on at school. School counselor could offer to meet with the family, etc. But if my 3rd grader wanted to be called a different name at school, I was a parent would want to know, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Let's have that "different conversation." Do you believe that trans high schoolers should be outed to their parents by their high schools? Even against the students' wishes? And even where the student tells the school that they fear retaliation by their parents?

At the HS level, I think the student should have that right. And before someone asks, I'm not sure about MS. But I lean more toward parents being involved in those conversations.

[Anonymous]

If the child is worried about some kind of violence from the parents, wouldn't mandatory reporter rules kick in and the school would have to take steps to protect the kid regardless. If the kid just thinks their parents would disapprove, I am not so sure. Some people may think it is bad that I would take steps to prevent my kids from playing tackle football and disapprove of the sport. Does that mean the school should let my kids be on the team without telling me because my kids fear what my reaction would be? I realize these things are not the same, but I do think reasonable people can disagree about the nuance here and I would be open to voting for someone for SB who would draw the line in a slightly different place than me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Always? And how often? If the parents are told and declare that everyone must use a particular pronoun for their child, and the student comes to school and says, "Mommy and Daddy are really mad at me. I wish I could just be Poppy," what then? Do the parents have a right to know? What if you know the parents are fans of reeducation camps for gay kids? Do you still have to tell them?

I'm not a teacher, but I'm guessing lots of parents do things at home that you don't agree with. That could be rules on screens, religious views, diet, bedtimes, etc. But fundamentally, these are still ES kids, and yes, I think parents should know what is going on at school. School counselor could offer to meet with the family, etc. But if my 3rd grader wanted to be called a different name at school, I was a parent would want to know, yes.

Would you be a parent your kid would want to know? Do you think your kid understands your values/approach to life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:+1 for nuance

It's so hard as a society to discuss some of this stuff right now. For example, I see the role of parents of elementary kids as very different from those of HS students. If an ES wants to change pronouns, I do think the parents should be told. In HS, that's a different conversation. But it's very hard to say such things publicly because anything not 100% in lockstep gets accused of being hateful.

Always? And how often? If the parents are told and declare that everyone must use a particular pronoun for their child, and the student comes to school and says, "Mommy and Daddy are really mad at me. I wish I could just be Poppy," what then? Do the parents have a right to know? What if you know the parents are fans of reeducation camps for gay kids? Do you still have to tell them?

I'm not a teacher, but I'm guessing lots of parents do things at home that you don't agree with. That could be rules on screens, religious views, diet, bedtimes, etc. But fundamentally, these are still ES kids, and yes, I think parents should know what is going on at school. School counselor could offer to meet with the family, etc. But if my 3rd grader wanted to be called a different name at school, I was a parent would want to know, yes.

Would you be a parent your kid would want to know? Do you think your kid understands your values/approach to life?

When I was a kids I never told my parents anything even though they were wonderful people who would have been totally accepting. Sometimes (a lot of the time) kids perception of their parents reactions are totally off base. I do not think teachers/social workers are necessarily the best judges of what the best thing is for my kid. I would want to know and think schools shoudl be required to tell parents. I also agreed with Youngkin's policy re youth sports. I do NOT agree with the policies re bathrooms. Trans kids face much more risk of harm by having to go to bathroom of their birth sex than how they identify. I think the left is really missing the mark by painting everyone not in line with them as "anti-trans." It's hard for them to know how most people feel about these issues though because we've made it so that you're vilified if you don't tote the party line. So everyone stay silent and votes how they feel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the child is worried about some kind of violence from the parents, wouldn't mandatory reporter rules kick in and the school would have to take steps to protect the kid regardless. If the kid just thinks their parents would disapprove, I am not so sure. Some people may think it is bad that I would take steps to prevent my kids from playing tackle football and disapprove of the sport. Does that mean the school should let my kids be on the team without telling me because my kids fear what my reaction would be? I realize these things are not the same, but I do think reasonable people can disagree about the nuance here and I would be open to voting for someone for SB who would draw the line in a slightly different place than me.

Yes, that's why we have child support statutes.

If you polled APS parents, a majority would vote that parents should polled for the school to call them by different pronouns or a different name or to use a different bathroom. And this is the most liberal or second-most liberal school district in the state.

The people on this board wanting to cut parents out are out of touch with APS parents, the State of VA and the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the child is worried about some kind of violence from the parents, wouldn't mandatory reporter rules kick in and the school would have to take steps to protect the kid regardless. If the kid just thinks their parents would disapprove, I am not so sure. Some people may think it is bad that I would take steps to prevent my kids from playing tackle football and disapprove of the sport. Does that mean the school should let my kids be on the team without telling me because my kids fear what my reaction would be? I realize these things are not the same, but I do think reasonable people can disagree about the nuance here and I would be open to voting for someone for SB who would draw the line in a slightly different place than me.

Yes, that's why we have child support statutes.

If you polled APS parents, a majority would vote that parents should polled for the school to call them by different pronouns or a different name or to use a different bathroom. And this is the most liberal or second-most liberal school district in the state.

The people on this board wanting to cut parents out are out of touch with APS parents, the State of VA and the US.

+1 the wokesters all think they're the majority in Arlington and everywhere, it's just that 1-party rule here allows them to be in charge.

[Anonymous]

The state cannot place itself between a parent and their child absent a finding of parental incompetence/negligence, subject to judicial review. If you think the school can do a better job parenting a kid than their parents, you have to own that decision, and be ready to show evidence. Don't just insinuate the hypothetical kid could be under threat of violence for pronouns and literally nothing else. If you don't think a parent can handle that information, then exercise your mandatory reporting obligations and report them to social services. Otherwise, keep them in the loop and butt out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the child is worried about some kind of violence from the parents, wouldn't mandatory reporter rules kick in and the school would have to take steps to protect the kid regardless. If the kid just thinks their parents would disapprove, I am not so sure. Some people may think it is bad that I would take steps to prevent my kids from playing tackle football and disapprove of the sport. Does that mean the school should let my kids be on the team without telling me because my kids fear what my reaction would be? I realize these things are not the same, but I do think reasonable people can disagree about the nuance here and I would be open to voting for someone for SB who would draw the line in a slightly different place than me.

They absolutely should kick in, but they won't. The pronouns crowd wants to have it both ways. They want us to believe that huge swaths of kids are under threat of violence at home\, but they don't plan to do anything else about that threat.

They do this because they know that a pronoun disagreement isn't enough to prove parental incompetence in a court of law, and if they even tried to assert that, the political blowback would be extreme.

So instead they just pretend that parental notification is tantamount to violence, and hope that's enough to intimidate people into silent acquiescence.