Zelensky can’t be trusted - Tom Friedman, NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Despite massive western aid, Ukraine has failed to recapture significant territory this summer. It’s a stalemate.

Uh, Russia was supposed to take the whole country in three days.

A quagmire is never good for the "superpower"

Agreed.

Beginning of the war that was my aim.

Arm Ukrainians to bleed Russians. Turn Ukraine into afghanistan at Russia’s doorstep.

Now…I dunno how long we can keep this boil up before Western Europe melts down sócio-politically-economically.

What is the Pareto solution to bleed Russians and maintain order in Western Europe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't stand Friedman, but good. Seeing the excuses made for and the willful inability to call dysfunction for what it is as it relates to Ukraine's power elite has been tiresome. They're renowned for venality to the point that I consider it to be an aspect of their national character. Russia is in heel with them on that aspect of their political life... but LOL at any idea that Ukraine doesn't have massive internal structural problems. Hauling in NGO's to shoehorn "democracy" into their public life isn't going to fix these corrupt impulses and attitudes, either.

We've supported worse in proxy wars. As long as they're killing Russians, there is no reason not to arm them

This all damn day.

Us policy makers are concerned that the eu could fracture over this.

Let’s revisit in feb 2023.

EU has itself to blame, for continuing its dependence on Russian gas. Putin is like a mobster running a protection racket.

Yes - they do. Eu is to blame.

American policy makers though do not want to see massive EU unrest.

It affects American interests even if you don’t care about the Europeans

There is a credible argument to be made to give Ukraine up to preserve western European political economy but open up a covert war against Russian spies and diplomats across the the world.

I would lift all sanctions on Russia, tell VZ to make a new country around Kyiv/Lviv, then break the church committee laws and authorize cia program to tactically kill 50-100 Russian spies/oligarch families over the next 24 months.

Better to open up a covert war and pay a smaller price (I know some of our spies and diplomats would get hit in return) in the grand scheme of things.

I don’t think people understand how close western Europe is to melt down.

Mi6/cia can get into a kinetic tit-4-tat which lets Russians and anglos fight without major countries breaking.

Oh ffs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't stand Friedman, but good. Seeing the excuses made for and the willful inability to call dysfunction for what it is as it relates to Ukraine's power elite has been tiresome. They're renowned for venality to the point that I consider it to be an aspect of their national character. Russia is in heel with them on that aspect of their political life... but LOL at any idea that Ukraine doesn't have massive internal structural problems. Hauling in NGO's to shoehorn "democracy" into their public life isn't going to fix these corrupt impulses and attitudes, either.

We've supported worse in proxy wars. As long as they're killing Russians, there is no reason not to arm them

This all damn day.

Us policy makers are concerned that the eu could fracture over this.

Let’s revisit in feb 2023.

EU has itself to blame, for continuing its dependence on Russian gas. Putin is like a mobster running a protection racket.

Yes - they do. Eu is to blame.

American policy makers though do not want to see massive EU unrest.

It affects American interests even if you don’t care about the Europeans

There is a credible argument to be made to give Ukraine up to preserve western European political economy but open up a covert war against Russian spies and diplomats across the the world.

I would lift all sanctions on Russia, tell VZ to make a new country around Kyiv/Lviv, then break the church committee laws and authorize cia program to tactically kill 50-100 Russian spies/oligarch families over the next 24 months.

Better to open up a covert war and pay a smaller price (I know some of our spies and diplomats would get hit in return) in the grand scheme of things.

I don’t think people understand how close western Europe is to melt down.

Mi6/cia can get into a kinetic tit-4-tat which lets Russians and anglos fight without major countries breaking.

This may be the nuttiest thing I’ve read here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't stand Friedman, but good. Seeing the excuses made for and the willful inability to call dysfunction for what it is as it relates to Ukraine's power elite has been tiresome. They're renowned for venality to the point that I consider it to be an aspect of their national character. Russia is in heel with them on that aspect of their political life... but LOL at any idea that Ukraine doesn't have massive internal structural problems. Hauling in NGO's to shoehorn "democracy" into their public life isn't going to fix these corrupt impulses and attitudes, either.

We've supported worse in proxy wars. As long as they're killing Russians, there is no reason not to arm them

This all damn day.

Us policy makers are concerned that the eu could fracture over this.

Let’s revisit in feb 2023.

EU has itself to blame, for continuing its dependence on Russian gas. Putin is like a mobster running a protection racket.

Yes - they do. Eu is to blame.

American policy makers though do not want to see massive EU unrest.

It affects American interests even if you don’t care about the Europeans

There is a credible argument to be made to give Ukraine up to preserve western European political economy but open up a covert war against Russian spies and diplomats across the the world.

I would lift all sanctions on Russia, tell VZ to make a new country around Kyiv/Lviv, then break the church committee laws and authorize cia program to tactically kill 50-100 Russian spies/oligarch families over the next 24 months.

Better to open up a covert war and pay a smaller price (I know some of our spies and diplomats would get hit in return) in the grand scheme of things.

I don’t think people understand how close western Europe is to melt down.

Mi6/cia can get into a kinetic tit-4-tat which lets Russians and anglos fight without major countries breaking.

This may be the nuttiest thing I’ve read here.

Most of their posts are out there like this. It’s the “Anglos” poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't stand Friedman, but good. Seeing the excuses made for and the willful inability to call dysfunction for what it is as it relates to Ukraine's power elite has been tiresome. They're renowned for venality to the point that I consider it to be an aspect of their national character. Russia is in heel with them on that aspect of their political life... but LOL at any idea that Ukraine doesn't have massive internal structural problems. Hauling in NGO's to shoehorn "democracy" into their public life isn't going to fix these corrupt impulses and attitudes, either.

We've supported worse in proxy wars. As long as they're killing Russians, there is no reason not to arm them

This all damn day.

Us policy makers are concerned that the eu could fracture over this.

Let’s revisit in feb 2023.

EU has itself to blame, for continuing its dependence on Russian gas. Putin is like a mobster running a protection racket.

Yes - they do. Eu is to blame.

American policy makers though do not want to see massive EU unrest.

It affects American interests even if you don’t care about the Europeans

There is a credible argument to be made to give Ukraine up to preserve western European political economy but open up a covert war against Russian spies and diplomats across the the world.

I would lift all sanctions on Russia, tell VZ to make a new country around Kyiv/Lviv, then break the church committee laws and authorize cia program to tactically kill 50-100 Russian spies/oligarch families over the next 24 months.

Better to open up a covert war and pay a smaller price (I know some of our spies and diplomats would get hit in return) in the grand scheme of things.

I don’t think people understand how close western Europe is to melt down.

Mi6/cia can get into a kinetic tit-4-tat which lets Russians and anglos fight without major countries breaking.

This may be the nuttiest thing I’ve read here.

I say let Zelenskyy keep at what he's doing, inflict pain and attrition on Russia. Do not lift sanctions. AND go after any and all of Putin's foreign assets abroad.

[Anonymous]

That Vogue photo shoot was a massive turnoff for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's rare to find a side in a war to truly sympathize with, except for the innocent people caught up in it.

Uhm, mnot sure….. sounds pretty easy in this case. Hopefully this is one of the rare cases for you because I am not sure what would be otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Despite massive western aid, Ukraine has failed to recapture significant territory this summer. It’s a stalemate.

Uh, Russia was supposed to take the whole country in three days.

A quagmire is never good for the "superpower"

Agreed.

Beginning of the war that was my aim.

Arm Ukrainians to bleed Russians. Turn Ukraine into afghanistan at Russia’s doorstep.

Now…I dunno how long we can keep this boil up before Western Europe melts down sócio-politically-economically.

What is the Pareto solution to bleed Russians and maintain order in Western Europe?

Undercut Russian's energy exports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's rare to find a side in a war to truly sympathize with, except for the innocent people caught up in it.

Uhm, mnot sure….. sounds pretty easy in this case. Hopefully this is one of the rare cases for you because I am not sure what would be otherwise.

Pretty easy to side with the country getting conquered. Ukraine isn’t squeaky clean, but no one deserves the atrocities they’ve been facing. Have people forgotten Bucha or how Russia deports people and razes towns and cities?

Who’s to say Russia doesn’t break whatever peace treaty they come up with? Putin lies all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's rare to find a side in a war to truly sympathize with, except for the innocent people caught up in it.

One side was attacked by the other side. One side has vowed to extinguish the other side as a people. Not that hard here

The conflict started in 2014 and it is not that black and white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That Vogue photo shoot was a massive turnoff for me.

Link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That Vogue photo shoot was a massive turnoff for me.

Link?

Seriously??

https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-vogue-photoshoot-war-ukraine-divides-public-russia-conflict-annie-leibovitz-1728470

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Despite massive western aid, Ukraine has failed to recapture significant territory this summer. It’s a stalemate.

Uh, Russia was supposed to take the whole country in three days.

A quagmire is never good for the "superpower"

Agreed.

Beginning of the war that was my aim.

Arm Ukrainians to bleed Russians. Turn Ukraine into afghanistan at Russia’s doorstep.

Now…I dunno how long we can keep this boil up before Western Europe melts down sócio-politically-economically.

What is the Pareto solution to bleed Russians and maintain order in Western Europe?

Undercut Russian's energy exports.

Way easier said than done

[Anonymous]

No matter what you think of the merits or strategic aims, Western Europe cannot last the winter.

The “strengthened” nato alliance is at maximum strength - now it will weaken as governments collapse under public demands.

If you are not in contact with friends in Europe about what they are facing in terms of household budgeting, you won’t “get” what is going on.

It is time to end this war abs allow “free Ukraine” into the EU. This is an honorable abs in some ways desirable outcome for Ukraine and can keep NATO intact.

Baltics are protected by NATO treaty obligations.

[Anonymous]

I hope you remember that during WWII, America and Great Britain were very distrustful of General Charles de Gaulle, french leader, because he came from the military, and they were afraid he might become the next dictator if he ascended to power.

It turns out he was a hero, became President, understood the Algerian war was an atrocity when others in France did not, and stepped down from the Presidency without a whiff of dictatorship tendencies.

Point being - sometimes mistrust is not actually indicative of anything.