Internalized misogyny

[Anonymous]

I struggle with this a lot. I’ve careened wildly from SAHM to breadwinner and it’s really forced me to look at how I saw the masculine and feminine parts of me. I was very misogynistic in my OWN views. I’m working on it but it’s deep deep stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout my teens and early 20s I dealt with males shoving their hands in my underwear or bathing suit. Like when I was 13 an older boy did underwater at the pool, when I was 20 a male friend did when I crashed on his couch. I thought they were no big deal, it happens, and when my female friends were upset over similar incidents I called them dramatic. Now I realize it was a HUGE problem.

Another example - I’ve had a couple female friends who were severely abused by their husbands, both mentally/emotionally and physically (to the point of hospitalization) and EVERYONE tries to blame the woman somehow. That it was mutually toxic, she didn’t act like an abused woman so made the whole thing up, that it was her fault for staying and she should have left, that she shouldn’t have divorced him because omg think of the children.

Ooooo, or when I hear moms complain that they are terrified their sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. I’m like, I have daughters, I’m terrified of ACTUAL assault. Just tell your sons the same thing we have been telling girls for centuries - if you don’t want it to happen, don’t put yourself in a situation where it can. Sorry boys, but no more parties, drinking, being along with girls. Keep sober and make sure you have a friend with you at all times. Oh that’s not fair you can do whatever you want? Boo hoo.

As someone who lived the second paragraph- thank you so much for seeing this. It goes so unseen.

I know two women who both lied about men assaulting them. Women suck just as much as some men. It’s right for women to worry for their sons. Many women are vindictive manipulators. Look what they do to try to get full custody? Many will falsely claim abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s just rephrase this post to how do I blame men for everything. My MIL does these things because she has internalized the misogyny of all the men in her life. Another sad blame fest.

I don’t see it as blaming men at all. I think we were all born into a system that was originally designed for a very, very small number of white men to acquire wealth off of the hard work of everyone else. This system hurts men in addition to women, unless they are in the elite minority. I don’t blame men for being born into this system, but I do think we all need to critically look at and challenge our beliefs.

Just examples…

1. We know that men who can’t gain access to sex run the risk of becoming violent (see: incels). By allowing for sexual assault of women, and by convincing men *women* are to blame, rather than the system that keeps them poor and unattractive, they are either satiated by assault/pressuring women for sex, OR they focus their anger on women rather than the men who are exploiting their work.

2. Society devalues childcare because it’s traditionally female work, which also means men don’t get much when it comes to parental leave, work-life balance, flexibility, etc. If we as a culture elevate raising children, men will also get paid paternity leave, fewer work hours, and better work-life balance. But this ultimately is bad for corporations who need men to work their @$$es off, so society has convinced men that parenting is not their responsibility.

3. As a society we’ve convinced everyone that women are attracted to men with money and that men need to provide for their families. That pressure is exploited to get men to work more hours for less pay.

The thing people don’t get is *misogyny hurts men, too*. Men could be valued as human beings rather than ATMs, have more time with their kids, and have overall more fulfilling lives, but instead they’re too busy trying to fight women. It’s not either men or women, it’s when we make things equal for all, it actually helps everyone.

I agree with much of this as well. For example, we have one child with special needs and the other kid has cancer. My hsuband HATES that when we meet with doctors and teachers they turn to me like I somehow magically know more about our children than he does. He also HATES every tv show and commercial that shows the “incompetent dad” trope that isn’t really much different than the dumb blonde trope. “Oh, those silly dads that don’t know how to change a diaper” makes him so mad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, i don’t think a discussion about internalized misogyny has anything to do with blaming men. It has to do with women recognizing their own biases about themselves.

+1. Internalized misogyny refers to women acting in misogynistic ways and being sexist. This is an not a discussion about men being misogynistic, it’s a discussion about women being misogynistic. Women are complicit in upholding sexist norms and it’s important to explore how we do this because it negatively impacts us.

To the posters, though, that don’t believe sexism exists, I doubt they would be able to comprehend the idea of internalized misogyny as you must first be able to acknowledge that sexism exists before you look inward to see the ways in which you uphold it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, i don’t think a discussion about internalized misogyny has anything to do with blaming men. It has to do with women recognizing their own biases about themselves.

+1. Internalized misogyny refers to women acting in misogynistic ways and being sexist. This is an not a discussion about men being misogynistic, it’s a discussion about women being misogynistic. Women are complicit in upholding sexist norms and it’s important to explore how we do this because it negatively impacts us.

To the posters, though, that don’t believe sexism exists, I doubt they would be able to comprehend the idea of internalized misogyny as you must first be able to acknowledge that sexism exists before you look inward to see the ways in which you uphold it.

+1 for the longest time I thought misogyny was very much a male thing. It wasn’t until my mid thirties that I realized that it is rampant amongst women. I hadn’t really understood what it was for the longest time, or that it is very much a subconscious thing. Most people don’t walk around thinking “I’m going to put women down because I’m a misogynist!” Of course not, it’s small things like growing up and observing that dad never lifted a finger and mom did everything. Then growing into an adult who subconsciously perpetuated this, regardless of one being male or female.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout my teens and early 20s I dealt with males shoving their hands in my underwear or bathing suit. Like when I was 13 an older boy did underwater at the pool, when I was 20 a male friend did when I crashed on his couch. I thought they were no big deal, it happens, and when my female friends were upset over similar incidents I called them dramatic. Now I realize it was a HUGE problem.

Another example - I’ve had a couple female friends who were severely abused by their husbands, both mentally/emotionally and physically (to the point of hospitalization) and EVERYONE tries to blame the woman somehow. That it was mutually toxic, she didn’t act like an abused woman so made the whole thing up, that it was her fault for staying and she should have left, that she shouldn’t have divorced him because omg think of the children.

Ooooo, or when I hear moms complain that they are terrified their sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. I’m like, I have daughters, I’m terrified of ACTUAL assault. Just tell your sons the same thing we have been telling girls for centuries - if you don’t want it to happen, don’t put yourself in a situation where it can. Sorry boys, but no more parties, drinking, being along with girls. Keep sober and make sure you have a friend with you at all times. Oh that’s not fair you can do whatever you want? Boo hoo.

As someone who lived the second paragraph- thank you so much for seeing this. It goes so unseen.

I know two women who both lied about men assaulting them. Women suck just as much as some men. It’s right for women to worry for their sons. Many women are vindictive manipulators. Look what they do to try to get full custody? Many will falsely claim abuse.

How do you know they lied? Did they tell you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout my teens and early 20s I dealt with males shoving their hands in my underwear or bathing suit. Like when I was 13 an older boy did underwater at the pool, when I was 20 a male friend did when I crashed on his couch. I thought they were no big deal, it happens, and when my female friends were upset over similar incidents I called them dramatic. Now I realize it was a HUGE problem.

Another example - I’ve had a couple female friends who were severely abused by their husbands, both mentally/emotionally and physically (to the point of hospitalization) and EVERYONE tries to blame the woman somehow. That it was mutually toxic, she didn’t act like an abused woman so made the whole thing up, that it was her fault for staying and she should have left, that she shouldn’t have divorced him because omg think of the children.

Ooooo, or when I hear moms complain that they are terrified their sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. I’m like, I have daughters, I’m terrified of ACTUAL assault. Just tell your sons the same thing we have been telling girls for centuries - if you don’t want it to happen, don’t put yourself in a situation where it can. Sorry boys, but no more parties, drinking, being along with girls. Keep sober and make sure you have a friend with you at all times. Oh that’s not fair you can do whatever you want? Boo hoo.

As someone who lived the second paragraph- thank you so much for seeing this. It goes so unseen.

I know two women who both lied about men assaulting them. Women suck just as much as some men. It’s right for women to worry for their sons. Many women are vindictive manipulators. Look what they do to try to get full custody? Many will falsely claim abuse.

How do you know they lied? Did they tell you?

One of them admitted later that she lied about it to cover up cheating. I grew up with her but she was a little older than me. The police started to not believe her and other started questioning her inconsistency. The poor kid spent about 2 months in jail because of it.

Another woman I know accused her husband of abuse and it was later discovered she was the abuser and lied so she could gain full custody of her kids and rid her ex of their life because she had a new man.

Nothing happened to either of these women but the men had their lives turned over. This is why I believe women should go to jail for false accusations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout my teens and early 20s I dealt with males shoving their hands in my underwear or bathing suit. Like when I was 13 an older boy did underwater at the pool, when I was 20 a male friend did when I crashed on his couch. I thought they were no big deal, it happens, and when my female friends were upset over similar incidents I called them dramatic. Now I realize it was a HUGE problem.

Another example - I’ve had a couple female friends who were severely abused by their husbands, both mentally/emotionally and physically (to the point of hospitalization) and EVERYONE tries to blame the woman somehow. That it was mutually toxic, she didn’t act like an abused woman so made the whole thing up, that it was her fault for staying and she should have left, that she shouldn’t have divorced him because omg think of the children.

Ooooo, or when I hear moms complain that they are terrified their sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. I’m like, I have daughters, I’m terrified of ACTUAL assault. Just tell your sons the same thing we have been telling girls for centuries - if you don’t want it to happen, don’t put yourself in a situation where it can. Sorry boys, but no more parties, drinking, being along with girls. Keep sober and make sure you have a friend with you at all times. Oh that’s not fair you can do whatever you want? Boo hoo.

As someone who lived the second paragraph- thank you so much for seeing this. It goes so unseen.

I know two women who both lied about men assaulting them. Women suck just as much as some men. It’s right for women to worry for their sons. Many women are vindictive manipulators. Look what they do to try to get full custody? Many will falsely claim abuse.

How do you know they lied? Did they tell you?

One of them admitted later that she lied about it to cover up cheating. I grew up with her but she was a little older than me. The police started to not believe her and other started questioning her inconsistency. The poor kid spent about 2 months in jail because of it.

Another woman I know accused her husband of abuse and it was later discovered she was the abuser and lied so she could gain full custody of her kids and rid her ex of their life because she had a new man.

Nothing happened to either of these women but the men had their lives turned over. This is why I believe women should go to jail for false accusations.

The one good thing is the father ended getting full custody after the money decided it was better to party with her new guy than raise her kids. He had since remarried and the kids don’t have the mother in their life.

[Anonymous]

I think of things like:

-women who says they are guys girls, or that the prefer being friends with guys, or that they prefer having male bosses
- women who in the office turn their attention to any man in the room over other women
- women who see women as competition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the poster that mentioned it. So, I’m assuming you want examples of where women have internalized misogynistic ideas. Examples would be:

Jumping in at work to make the coffee, plan the parties, take the meeting notes.
Writing all the thank you notes after the wedding
Jumping in to manage the relationship with their in laws
Feeling bad when you make more money than your husband
Judging women for how they dress
When you hear about a sexual assault, immediately wondering why the woman was there and if she was drunk

I could go on and on.

The bolded sound more like having low self esteem and falling back on the comfort of stereotype roles. A woman can hate herself without it being internalized misogyny.

The other two, yes, internalized misogyny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think of things like:

-women who says they are guys girls, or that the prefer being friends with guys, or that they prefer having male bosses
- women who in the office turn their attention to any man in the room over other women
- women who see women as competition

Again, a woman can have low self esteem without it being internalized misogyny

[Anonymous]

I’ve mostly experienced it in the phenomenon of “dues paying” or the idea that because some women had to do/experience things it is a reasonable expectation that all women should, and any who don’t are “high maintenance”

In the workplace I had to counsel a woman office manager who actually said that the new “girls” had to “pay their dues” with administrative tasks. I explained that this is a workplace, there are no “dues”, and everyone will do the job assigned to them. She was remarkably defensive about it and actually said she had the women’s best interests in mind because when she had joined the organization all women (with very few exceptions, who apparently were despised…) were secretarial to some extent.

The same attitude prevails in childbirth/recovery. Women who had easy recoveries bully women who aren’t serving dinner for four the next day. Say the word “night nurse” and watch the shrieking. Meanwhile no one has ever expected a man to have surgery and serve dinner for four the next day and a man with a health aide after surgery is just…a man with a health aide after surgery.

I think in both instances there’s an unwillingness to look at the forest and it’s easier to blame the trees. Yeah it’s messed up that there were laws preventing women from doing certain jobs when that office manager started! Yeah it’s awful how the U.S system does postpartum care! But instead women are socialized to blame the “Becky”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve mostly experienced it in the phenomenon of “dues paying” or the idea that because some women had to do/experience things it is a reasonable expectation that all women should, and any who don’t are “high maintenance”

In the workplace I had to counsel a woman office manager who actually said that the new “girls” had to “pay their dues” with administrative tasks. I explained that this is a workplace, there are no “dues”, and everyone will do the job assigned to them. She was remarkably defensive about it and actually said she had the women’s best interests in mind because when she had joined the organization all women (with very few exceptions, who apparently were despised…) were secretarial to some extent.

The same attitude prevails in childbirth/recovery. Women who had easy recoveries bully women who aren’t serving dinner for four the next day. Say the word “night nurse” and watch the shrieking. Meanwhile no one has ever expected a man to have surgery and serve dinner for four the next day and a man with a health aide after surgery is just…a man with a health aide after surgery.

I think in both instances there’s an unwillingness to look at the forest and it’s easier to blame the trees. Yeah it’s messed up that there were laws preventing women from doing certain jobs when that office manager started! Yeah it’s awful how the U.S system does postpartum care! But instead women are socialized to blame the “Becky”

Agree. I am hopeful that a lot of this is slowly shifting. I think our generations work is very much unpacking a lot of this stuff and becoming more mindful in our relationships with ourselves and other women. Especially so our kids can have a better fighting chance all around - in their marriages, at work, in relationships etc… And in no way do I mean just girls, but all kids. As another poster mentioned, males suffer just as much from misogyny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout my teens and early 20s I dealt with males shoving their hands in my underwear or bathing suit. Like when I was 13 an older boy did underwater at the pool, when I was 20 a male friend did when I crashed on his couch. I thought they were no big deal, it happens, and when my female friends were upset over similar incidents I called them dramatic. Now I realize it was a HUGE problem.

Another example - I’ve had a couple female friends who were severely abused by their husbands, both mentally/emotionally and physically (to the point of hospitalization) and EVERYONE tries to blame the woman somehow. That it was mutually toxic, she didn’t act like an abused woman so made the whole thing up, that it was her fault for staying and she should have left, that she shouldn’t have divorced him because omg think of the children.

Ooooo, or when I hear moms complain that they are terrified their sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. I’m like, I have daughters, I’m terrified of ACTUAL assault. Just tell your sons the same thing we have been telling girls for centuries - if you don’t want it to happen, don’t put yourself in a situation where it can. Sorry boys, but no more parties, drinking, being along with girls. Keep sober and make sure you have a friend with you at all times. Oh that’s not fair you can do whatever you want? Boo hoo.

As someone who lived the second paragraph- thank you so much for seeing this. It goes so unseen.

I know two women who both lied about men assaulting them. Women suck just as much as some men. It’s right for women to worry for their sons. Many women are vindictive manipulators. Look what they do to try to get full custody? Many will falsely claim abuse.

How do you know they lied? Did they tell you?

One of them admitted later that she lied about it to cover up cheating. I grew up with her but she was a little older than me. The police started to not believe her and other started questioning her inconsistency. The poor kid spent about 2 months in jail because of it.

Another woman I know accused her husband of abuse and it was later discovered she was the abuser and lied so she could gain full custody of her kids and rid her ex of their life because she had a new man.

Nothing happened to either of these women but the men had their lives turned over. This is why I believe women should go to jail for false accusations.

I don’t buy this. I had a friend who was severely abused - husband held her hostage in their home for 2 weeks, raped her repeatedly, beat her, and attempted to kill her twice in front of their children. The police actually had to call in a SWAT team to get him because he was waving guns around threatening to shoot them. he spent barely any time in jail and she is now going bankrupt trying to prevent him from getting any custody. He very likely will.

And the worst part is everyone turned against *her*. Their entire church said she made the entire thing up, even though the cops had collected indisputable evidence. She got a restraining order, he repeatedly violates it and no judge will do anything about it. Prior to holding her hostage, he moved his affair partner into their house, she came home and another woman was in her home and she had to leave to protect her kids, this woman has testified that he’s not violent and that my friend is making it up.

For sure women make false accusations but it’s far more rare than men abusing women. And if you don’t want your sons to be falsely accused, YOU NEED TO TEACH THEM HOW TO AVOID IT. Just like I need to teach my daughters to avoid men who are abusive, predators, or violent. Teach them to think with their big head and choose stable women. Teach them to not be in compromising situations. Teach them to take things slowly with women so they don’t get love bombed and then later find out she’s crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think of things like:

-women who says they are guys girls, or that the prefer being friends with guys, or that they prefer having male bosses
- women who in the office turn their attention to any man in the room over other women
- women who see women as competition

Female here. I 💯 prefer having a male bosses. Ridiculous to suggest that makes me a misogynist.