Can federal agencies fire you if your performance is satisfactory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

Does that happen in unionized agencies?

NP. Why wouldn't it? I have given plenty of poor reviews and PIPs to people who are poor performers in unionized agencies. Only lazy managers let poor performers stick around. I have also downgraded people. If you're just a bad GS13, maybe you should be a mediocre GS12 where not as much is required.

And OP- I would likely redo your EPAP to reflect the work that I want you to do and I'd make it quantitative and qualitative. My entire team does the same work. I can't have one lazy guy never completing his work while the other simmer and get upset because of the unfair workload.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At my agency, you would probably be gradually marginalized -- assigned less important/difficult tasks -- but not terminated.

Isn't that what OP wants? Less work, same pay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

NP, you can only reassign if you have another job that they can be assigned into. And it needs to be in their job series.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

NP, you can only reassign if you have another job that they can be assigned into. And it needs to be in their job series.

This is really not true. You may have some unique rules in your organization, or union. But federal employees in general can be reassigned to any position so long as it is at the same grade (and there are no min quals the employee cannot meet).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

That requires a ton of hoops that general law and HR have to be willing to jump through and it potentially lands you in front of MSPB if you turn around and fill the vacancy that their departure created.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

It is not hard, it just takes effort and most middle managers do not want to put in the effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

Does that happen in unionized agencies?

NP. Why wouldn't it? I have given plenty of poor reviews and PIPs to people who are poor performers in unionized agencies. Only lazy managers let poor performers stick around. I have also downgraded people. If you're just a bad GS13, maybe you should be a mediocre GS12 where not as much is required.

Oh, I know you can get a bad review. I was talking about the idea of threatening someone with a bad review as a stick to get someone to leave. Seems a bit underhanded and a way to get around worker protections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

It is not hard, it just takes effort and most middle managers do not want to put in the effort.

In my experience, young managers are willing to put in the effort, but once they realize HR won't back them up they give up

[Anonymous]

I’ve never seen it happen with unsatisfactory performance so there is that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

That requires a ton of hoops that general law and HR have to be willing to jump through and it potentially lands you in front of MSPB if you turn around and fill the vacancy that their departure created.

I can only speak from my own experience (as an employment lawyer and then exec in 4 different federal agencies), but within grade reassignments are really not that hard. It is literally processing an SF-50. And I really do not see a path to MSPB. Somebody can fil an EEO complaint, but they can do that for anything. I've done it many many times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

Does that happen in unionized agencies?

NP. Why wouldn't it? I have given plenty of poor reviews and PIPs to people who are poor performers in unionized agencies. Only lazy managers let poor performers stick around. I have also downgraded people. If you're just a bad GS13, maybe you should be a mediocre GS12 where not as much is required.

Oh, I know you can get a bad review. I was talking about the idea of threatening someone with a bad review as a stick to get someone to leave. Seems a bit underhanded and a way to get around worker protections.

It is all in how you look at it. Letting somebody know, honestly, that their performance is not meeting expectation or in danger of not meeting expectations that is the core of what performance management is about. It provides that employee the opportunity to either improve performance or leave without a mark on their record. If I were in that position as an employee, I certainly would appreciate the heads up before a formal PIP was issued...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

they actually can't do this. You are hired with a certain job description and that remains your job.

Wrong. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/summary-of-reassignment/

That requires a ton of hoops that general law and HR have to be willing to jump through and it potentially lands you in front of MSPB if you turn around and fill the vacancy that their departure created.

I can only speak from my own experience (as an employment lawyer and then exec in 4 different federal agencies), but within grade reassignments are really not that hard. It is literally processing an SF-50. And I really do not see a path to MSPB. Somebody can fil an EEO complaint, but they can do that for anything. I've done it many many times.

Correct - it's easy. It happened to me. I failed to navigate office politics and was told I had a very short period of time to find a new position before they put me in a corner. I was told explicitly and in writing that it was not a reflection on my performance - I just didn't share the vision of the SES that booted me. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well they can't fire you for performance issues.

If you enjoy your job, why aren't you doing better than satisfactory?

The work is pretty complex. As I age into my career (20+ years), I've noticed I'm not as sharp as more junior staff. I'm not alone in this sense. Still, I work hard and provide good work.

How old are you and what kind of work do you do?