Can federal agencies fire you if your performance is satisfactory?

[Anonymous]

yes, but it is a super hard thing to do. I've done it twice as a manager. It's never fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

What rises to the level of a "conduct" issue? Where I work, low performers often keep their heads down and don't make waves.

I think that pP was speaking out of his a$$. Over 30 years I've seen only two folks getting fired - one cheated on his travel voucher and the other did something with his young femal contractor. Both were SESs and both were escorted out by security guards

+2. I'm a fed and you can scream at your boss and coworkers if you want to - bullying is not an EEOC offense. Don't cheat on your timesheet and don't steal, like the voucher exampl abov. In over a decade, I know of 2 people getting fired - one didn't show up at work almost at all for 4 years, got fired, sued, won and got backpay + early retirement. The second one had a clearance and he got arrested for beating up his wife.

[Anonymous]

For a conduct issue, what about a key logging review? If hours at the keyboard are low, wouldn’t that be stealing since they’re paying you for 40 hours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

What rises to the level of a "conduct" issue? Where I work, low performers often keep their heads down and don't make waves.

I think that pP was speaking out of his a$$. Over 30 years I've seen only two folks getting fired - one cheated on his travel voucher and the other did something with his young femal contractor. Both were SESs and both were escorted out by security guards

+2. I'm a fed and you can scream at your boss and coworkers if you want to - bullying is not an EEOC offense. Don't cheat on your timesheet and don't steal, like the voucher exampl abov. In over a decade, I know of 2 people getting fired - one didn't show up at work almost at all for 4 years, got fired, sued, won and got backpay + early retirement. The second one had a clearance and he got arrested for beating up his wife.

These threads crap me up. They are always the same: 1/3 employment lawyers who want to tell you incredibly specific law that is unnecessary, 1/3 people who think all agencies are the same and their experience is universal, and 1/3 people who just say federal employees are lazy slugs who can never be fired:

The truth:

1. It is possible to end the employment of employees for all types of reasons.
2. The least common type of an exist is "getting fired." The most common is "managing out." (what it sounds like is happening to OP)
3. Most employees would never know is another employee was managed out.
4. EVERY AGENCY HAS A DIFFERENT RISK TOLERANCE AND APPROACH. It is not universal.

[Anonymous]

Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

[Anonymous]

They can just move you to another job or remove your current responsibilities. If you like your job, I'd have an honest conversation about how you can keep it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

Does that happen in unionized agencies?

[Anonymous]

My personal opinion, having watched this go down from a non-management position, is that sometimes the employee is unhappy and not highly productive but the manager sucks too and is ill suited to their position. The better managers know the work well and can teach it and get some productivity out of a low performer. Managers who lack some of the required skill set may want to get rid of an employee so they can hire someone who can do THEIR job. Then that person does their job and they can relax and make the better money. The politics in Federal work are crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My personal opinion, having watched this go down from a non-management position, is that sometimes the employee is unhappy and not highly productive but the manager sucks too and is ill suited to their position. The better managers know the work well and can teach it and get some productivity out of a low performer. Managers who lack some of the required skill set may want to get rid of an employee so they can hire someone who can do THEIR job. Then that person does their job and they can relax and make the better money. The politics in Federal work are crazy.

This happens at DOS a lot. Too many front line managers who absolutely suck at managing folks in an6 aspect. They just move low-performing people to a place where they cannot be seen, nor heard. Easier to do that than a PIP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something that has worked at my agency is the threat of a bad review. Basically, the employee is told they will receive a poor review. If the person hopes to continue in government or even some other places, they won’t want that on their record. So, the employee leaves in lieu of the bad review.

Does that happen in unionized agencies?

Yes. Of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

What rises to the level of a "conduct" issue? Where I work, low performers often keep their heads down and don't make waves.

I think that pP was speaking out of his a$$. Over 30 years I've seen only two folks getting fired - one cheated on his travel voucher and the other did something with his young femal contractor. Both were SESs and both were escorted out by security guards

+2. I'm a fed and you can scream at your boss and coworkers if you want to - bullying is not an EEOC offense. Don't cheat on your timesheet and don't steal, like the voucher exampl abov. In over a decade, I know of 2 people getting fired - one didn't show up at work almost at all for 4 years, got fired, sued, won and got backpay + early retirement. The second one had a clearance and he got arrested for beating up his wife.

These threads crap me up. They are always the same: 1/3 employment lawyers who want to tell you incredibly specific law that is unnecessary, 1/3 people who think all agencies are the same and their experience is universal, and 1/3 people who just say federal employees are lazy slugs who can never be fired:

The truth:

1. It is possible to end the employment of employees for all types of reasons.
2. The least common type of an exist is "getting fired." The most common is "managing out." (what it sounds like is happening to OP)
3. Most employees would never know is another employee was managed out.
4. EVERY AGENCY HAS A DIFFERENT RISK TOLERANCE AND APPROACH. It is not universal.

You are quite naive. The level of gossip that is happening at agencies is out of control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For a conduct issue, what about a key logging review? If hours at the keyboard are low, wouldn’t that be stealing since they’re paying you for 40 hours?

No. My agency is 90% old lawyers and they print and review everything on paper.

[Anonymous]

At my agency, you would probably be gradually marginalized -- assigned less important/difficult tasks -- but not terminated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

What rises to the level of a "conduct" issue? Where I work, low performers often keep their heads down and don't make waves.

I think that pP was speaking out of his a$$. Over 30 years I've seen only two folks getting fired - one cheated on his travel voucher and the other did something with his young femal contractor. Both were SESs and both were escorted out by security guards

+2. I'm a fed and you can scream at your boss and coworkers if you want to - bullying is not an EEOC offense. Don't cheat on your timesheet and don't steal, like the voucher exampl abov. In over a decade, I know of 2 people getting fired - one didn't show up at work almost at all for 4 years, got fired, sued, won and got backpay + early retirement. The second one had a clearance and he got arrested for beating up his wife.

These threads crap me up. They are always the same: 1/3 employment lawyers who want to tell you incredibly specific law that is unnecessary, 1/3 people who think all agencies are the same and their experience is universal, and 1/3 people who just say federal employees are lazy slugs who can never be fired:

The truth:

1. It is possible to end the employment of employees for all types of reasons.
2. The least common type of an exist is "getting fired." The most common is "managing out." (what it sounds like is happening to OP)
3. Most employees would never know is another employee was managed out.
4. EVERY AGENCY HAS A DIFFERENT RISK TOLERANCE AND APPROACH. It is not universal.

You are quite naive. The level of gossip that is happening at agencies is out of control.

LOL +1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to fire someone based on performance. They'll likely try and get you on conduct issues. If they want you gone, generally poor, or even average performers have at least a couple conduct issues. It's way easier to document and fire based on conduct.

+1 This is what my agency does. Won't touch performance, but give HR a conduct issue and you're gone.

What rises to the level of a "conduct" issue? Where I work, low performers often keep their heads down and don't make waves.

I think that pP was speaking out of his a$$. Over 30 years I've seen only two folks getting fired - one cheated on his travel voucher and the other did something with his young femal contractor. Both were SESs and both were escorted out by security guards

+2. I'm a fed and you can scream at your boss and coworkers if you want to - bullying is not an EEOC offense. Don't cheat on your timesheet and don't steal, like the voucher exampl abov. In over a decade, I know of 2 people getting fired - one didn't show up at work almost at all for 4 years, got fired, sued, won and got backpay + early retirement. The second one had a clearance and he got arrested for beating up his wife.

These threads crap me up. They are always the same: 1/3 employment lawyers who want to tell you incredibly specific law that is unnecessary, 1/3 people who think all agencies are the same and their experience is universal, and 1/3 people who just say federal employees are lazy slugs who can never be fired:

The truth:

1. It is possible to end the employment of employees for all types of reasons.
2. The least common type of an exist is "getting fired." The most common is "managing out." (what it sounds like is happening to OP)
3. Most employees would never know is another employee was managed out.
4. EVERY AGENCY HAS A DIFFERENT RISK TOLERANCE AND APPROACH. It is not universal.

You are quite naive. The level of gossip that is happening at agencies is out of control.

LOL +1

OK, I overstated that point. Some people will always know if someone is managed out. But I have seen multiple times where people expect someone to be FIRED and complain that nothng was done to address performance/conduct, when in fact a whole lot was done. People tend to expect someone to be marched out the door with a cardboard box and a security person.

The rest of it I stand behind.

(And I appreciate you both not picking on me typing "Crap me up" instead of "Crack me up"!)