Accommodation Nation

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I will no longer subscribe to the Atlantic or even add traffic to their site, but I can imagine what the rest of the article is like. You know what the solution is to this 'problem'? Give everyone extra time - it is ridiculous, particularly at the college level, to think one person is smarter or better educated or better prepared because it takes them less time to solve a problem or write an essay than the next person.

I would never want to hire anyone who has been given extra time to do assignments all their lives. That's just not the way the world works. But if you want your kid unprepared for real life, go for it.

And that's exactly why it's not disclosed, and you, as an employer, will never know who did or did not get extended time.

So are you saying they can actually manage deadlines suddenly when they start working? Why weren't they doing that before if they can actually do it?

It’s almost like 45 minute, timed, closed book exams don’t remotely reflect the vast majority of working environments.

They actually do because you need to think on your feet and may be called on at any time to speak in a meeting.

How many meeting-esque oral exams have you had in your academic career? I have multiple degrees and can honestly say zero.

Have you never been a decision maker? Many meetings will involve discussing disparate/novel ideas in real-time, offering counterpoints in real time, and making decisions in real time. All within the meeting, not "Hey, let's table this and let Jane mull it over for the next 48 hours."

There's also crisis situations that arise is all work environments, courtroom lawyers who have to make make objections in the moment, ER doctors, the White House press secretary thinking of some excuse for Trump's behavior on the fly. I can think of a hundred more career situations where quick thinking is more vital to being effective than perfect research/writing over a lengthy time period.

I have plenty of meetings with decision makers. Those meetings are nothing remotely akin to a timed 45 minute test. If your desire is to test “thinking on your feet,” a multiple choice or written essay exam is a piss poor way of doing it.

So what would be your approach to testing quick thinking, if you were a professor teaching a lecture course of 100+ students?

Or are you saying this should never be tested, and it's not fair that some kids think quicker than others (or are calmer under pressure), and that we shouldn't value this in academics/society?

Cold calling. Facilitating small group discussions evaluated by TAs for participation. The options are endless.

lol. They will get accommodations to be exempt from cold calling. Small group discussions are a meaningless metric unless they are basically oral quizzes.

I’ve never heard of an accommodation exempting you from cold calls. Have you? And aren’t small group discussions basically work meetings? I’m not sure how they’re worthless.

[Anonymous]

Of note, you can't pass the physical exam to become a military officer through any of the Academies or ROTC if you've ever had academic extra time after age 14. They're incredibly strict about this. So they recognize that they don't want people in decision making job roles who will need extra time to info gather and come to a conclusion.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What I haven’t seen in all of this is a solution.

Give everyone the accommodation and take away the shitty time pressure?

It doesn’t seem likely we’re going to see a bunch of institutions saying that accommodations aren’t going to be applied to test-taking or contesting even the most obviously fake cases.

So what do we do? Every test is take-home, 24 hours, with word limits and access to the Internet and other students is built in to the test design?

I would build in an extra 30 minutes for everyone into every exam. Write a math exam that should take a typically prepared student 60 minutes to complete and give everyone 90 minutes and the extra time kids 90x1.5 or 90x2.

The grievance that private school kids have with the extra-time abusers is that they use their extra time to check their work. They do the test in 60 minutes and then spend the second 60 minutes checking all the problems. Allowing everyone to have 30 extra minutes would level this playing field.

Many teachers at schools that have 40% of the class with extra time do this. They don't make the exams tight time-wise but build in 15-30 minutes into every test so everyone has some extra time to check their answers.

Teachers don't want to be administering tests that only the extra time kids do well on. They see the games being played.

"Games being played"? Teachers who make time-rush tests are creating those games.

Let’s just give everyone the rest of their lives to complete every test and assignment. Any limits whatsoever are discriminatory and useless.

+1

Anxiety over taking a test. LOL !

Do you get a life extension for death anxiety? It’s devastating.

[Anonymous]

Yep, there are so many kids in our private who are getting extra time on tests because their parents arranged anxiety diagnosis for them.

It’s an epidemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yep, there are so many kids in our private who are getting extra time on tests because their parents arranged anxiety diagnosis for them.

It’s an epidemic.

Epidemic or scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a grasp on the material, then no amount of extra time is going to change that . . . but be angry about extra time if it makes you feel better.

BS. More time is helpful. If some kids get it others should too.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I will no longer subscribe to the Atlantic or even add traffic to their site, but I can imagine what the rest of the article is like. You know what the solution is to this 'problem'? Give everyone extra time - it is ridiculous, particularly at the college level, to think one person is smarter or better educated or better prepared because it takes them less time to solve a problem or write an essay than the next person.

I would never want to hire anyone who has been given extra time to do assignments all their lives. That's just not the way the world works. But if you want your kid unprepared for real life, go for it.

And that's exactly why it's not disclosed, and you, as an employer, will never know who did or did not get extended time.

So are you saying they can actually manage deadlines suddenly when they start working? Why weren't they doing that before if they can actually do it?

It’s almost like 45 minute, timed, closed book exams don’t remotely reflect the vast majority of working environments.

They actually do because you need to think on your feet and may be called on at any time to speak in a meeting.

How many meeting-esque oral exams have you had in your academic career? I have multiple degrees and can honestly say zero.

Have you never been a decision maker? Many meetings will involve discussing disparate/novel ideas in real-time, offering counterpoints in real time, and making decisions in real time. All within the meeting, not "Hey, let's table this and let Jane mull it over for the next 48 hours."

There's also crisis situations that arise is all work environments, courtroom lawyers who have to make make objections in the moment, ER doctors, the White House press secretary thinking of some excuse for Trump's behavior on the fly. I can think of a hundred more career situations where quick thinking is more vital to being effective than perfect research/writing over a lengthy time period.

I have plenty of meetings with decision makers. Those meetings are nothing remotely akin to a timed 45 minute test. If your desire is to test “thinking on your feet,” a multiple choice or written essay exam is a piss poor way of doing it.

So what would be your approach to testing quick thinking, if you were a professor teaching a lecture course of 100+ students?

Or are you saying this should never be tested, and it's not fair that some kids think quicker than others (or are calmer under pressure), and that we shouldn't value this in academics/society?

Cold calling. Facilitating small group discussions evaluated by TAs for participation. The options are endless.

lol. They will get accommodations to be exempt from cold calling. Small group discussions are a meaningless metric unless they are basically oral quizzes.

I’ve never heard of an accommodation exempting you from cold calls. Have you? And aren’t small group discussions basically work meetings? I’m not sure how they’re worthless.

DP. I teach in a magnet middle school. No cold calling is a popular accommodation for students with anxiety. It is killing structured discussion-based assessments like Socratic seminars because 1/3 of the class is exempt. We tried giving those kids the question pool in advance, but then they just read off a statement written by a parent of chat-gpt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, there are so many kids in our private who are getting extra time on tests because their parents arranged anxiety diagnosis for them.

It’s an epidemic.

Epidemic or scam?

Both.

Social media is making kids more anxious.

Even kids who don’t personally use social media are anxious about becoming a meme if they violate some cryptic social norm or just have a normal teen moment of not being polished.

It’s also a scam because it is not anxiety about grades or learning for most of them.

[Anonymous]

My kid is in a tough STEM major. I am wondering if 20-30 percent of the kids have accommodations, then it’s kind of like my son starting a 5K 1/4 mile behind. That’s not fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will no longer subscribe to the Atlantic or even add traffic to their site, but I can imagine what the rest of the article is like. You know what the solution is to this 'problem'? Give everyone extra time - it is ridiculous, particularly at the college level, to think one person is smarter or better educated or better prepared because it takes them less time to solve a problem or write an essay than the next person.

I would never want to hire anyone who has been given extra time to do assignments all their lives. That's just not the way the world works. But if you want your kid unprepared for real life, go for it.

And that's exactly why it's not disclosed, and you, as an employer, will never know who did or did not get extended time.

So are you saying they can actually manage deadlines suddenly when they start working? Why weren't they doing that before if they can actually do it?

It’s almost like 45 minute, timed, closed book exams don’t remotely reflect the vast majority of working environments.

They actually do because you need to think on your feet and may be called on at any time to speak in a meeting.

How many meeting-esque oral exams have you had in your academic career? I have multiple degrees and can honestly say zero.

Have you never been a decision maker? Many meetings will involve discussing disparate/novel ideas in real-time, offering counterpoints in real time, and making decisions in real time. All within the meeting, not "Hey, let's table this and let Jane mull it over for the next 48 hours."

There's also crisis situations that arise is all work environments, courtroom lawyers who have to make make objections in the moment, ER doctors, the White House press secretary thinking of some excuse for Trump's behavior on the fly. I can think of a hundred more career situations where quick thinking is more vital to being effective than perfect research/writing over a lengthy time period.

I have plenty of meetings with decision makers. Those meetings are nothing remotely akin to a timed 45 minute test. If your desire is to test “thinking on your feet,” a multiple choice or written essay exam is a piss poor way of doing it.

NP, but you are displaying an astounding lack of critical thinking skills while being absurdly literal. I certainly wouldn’t trust you to make any important decisions.

Cool. Unfortunately for you, I make plenty of important decisions.

The point of this discussion is that kids who need extended time on speeded tests can be perfectly successful in a variety of workplaces because few workplaces involve completing assignments that remotely resemble speeded tests.

Do we have work that involves time pressure? Sure. But it’s rarely the kind of time pressure in an exam. Many jobs also offer a lot more flexibility to specialize based on abilities and interests. A colleague of mine has a significant stutter and thus chose to be a transactional lawyer instead of a litigator who has to do oral advocacy. Similarly, some people may struggle on timed tests because they’re slower processors (though there are plenty of other reasons beyond that for needing extended time for timed exams like inability to sustain attention or medical incidents). Those who are slow processors might also avoid oral argument, which is a thing most lawyers can find a way to do (though 90% of lawyers, by my estimation, fail miserably at oral argument anyway). And finally, it’s worth noting that employers (and courts) must also give reasonable accommodations like schools.

So yeah, people who need extended time in extremely artificial testing environments may have some areas of struggle in the workforce like all of us do. There’s a great chance those struggles aren’t prohibitive at all.

The whole economic idea of productivity is tied to how quickly a task gets completed. If such accommodations are made wholesale and made uniform across the society , the nation will be poorer. And non accommodation nations will fly by it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in a tough STEM major. I am wondering if 20-30 percent of the kids have accommodations, then it’s kind of like my son starting a 5K 1/4 mile behind. That’s not fair.

Don’t worry, if the kids actually need accommodation they are starting a mile behind him.

Having a serious disability isn’t nearly the cheat code people seem to think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of note, you can't pass the physical exam to become a military officer through any of the Academies or ROTC if you've ever had academic extra time after age 14. They're incredibly strict about this. So they recognize that they don't want people in decision making job roles who will need extra time to info gather and come to a conclusion.

Very thankful that the US Military has this policy because each decision may involve the possible loss of life.

Anxiety is a part of life--especially prior to taking an exam or engaging in an athletic competition or most any type of competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in a tough STEM major. I am wondering if 20-30 percent of the kids have accommodations, then it’s kind of like my son starting a 5K 1/4 mile behind. That’s not fair.

Don’t worry, if the kids actually need accommodation they are starting a mile behind him.

Having a serious disability isn’t nearly the cheat code people seem to think it is.

I think that we all agree that a serious disability merits consideration, but the article and concern is about trivial or imaginary or intentionally fabricated disabilities regarding anxiety that have become a form of institutionally permissible form of cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, there are so many kids in our private who are getting extra time on tests because their parents arranged anxiety diagnosis for them.

It’s an epidemic.

Epidemic or scam?

Both.

Social media is making kids more anxious.

Even kids who don’t personally use social media are anxious about becoming a meme if they violate some cryptic social norm or just have a normal teen moment of not being polished.

It’s also a scam because it is not anxiety about grades or learning for most of them.

Agree with the above post--especially that it is both an epidemic and a scam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will no longer subscribe to the Atlantic or even add traffic to their site, but I can imagine what the rest of the article is like. You know what the solution is to this 'problem'? Give everyone extra time - it is ridiculous, particularly at the college level, to think one person is smarter or better educated or better prepared because it takes them less time to solve a problem or write an essay than the next person.

I would never want to hire anyone who has been given extra time to do assignments all their lives. That's just not the way the world works. But if you want your kid unprepared for real life, go for it.

And that's exactly why it's not disclosed, and you, as an employer, will never know who did or did not get extended time.

So are you saying they can actually manage deadlines suddenly when they start working? Why weren't they doing that before if they can actually do it?

It’s almost like 45 minute, timed, closed book exams don’t remotely reflect the vast majority of working environments.

They actually do because you need to think on your feet and may be called on at any time to speak in a meeting.

How many meeting-esque oral exams have you had in your academic career? I have multiple degrees and can honestly say zero.

Have you never been a decision maker? Many meetings will involve discussing disparate/novel ideas in real-time, offering counterpoints in real time, and making decisions in real time. All within the meeting, not "Hey, let's table this and let Jane mull it over for the next 48 hours."

There's also crisis situations that arise is all work environments, courtroom lawyers who have to make make objections in the moment, ER doctors, the White House press secretary thinking of some excuse for Trump's behavior on the fly. I can think of a hundred more career situations where quick thinking is more vital to being effective than perfect research/writing over a lengthy time period.

I have plenty of meetings with decision makers. Those meetings are nothing remotely akin to a timed 45 minute test. If your desire is to test “thinking on your feet,” a multiple choice or written essay exam is a piss poor way of doing it.

NP, but you are displaying an astounding lack of critical thinking skills while being absurdly literal. I certainly wouldn’t trust you to make any important decisions.

Cool. Unfortunately for you, I make plenty of important decisions.

The point of this discussion is that kids who need extended time on speeded tests can be perfectly successful in a variety of workplaces because few workplaces involve completing assignments that remotely resemble speeded tests.

Do we have work that involves time pressure? Sure. But it’s rarely the kind of time pressure in an exam. Many jobs also offer a lot more flexibility to specialize based on abilities and interests. A colleague of mine has a significant stutter and thus chose to be a transactional lawyer instead of a litigator who has to do oral advocacy. Similarly, some people may struggle on timed tests because they’re slower processors (though there are plenty of other reasons beyond that for needing extended time for timed exams like inability to sustain attention or medical incidents). Those who are slow processors might also avoid oral argument, which is a thing most lawyers can find a way to do (though 90% of lawyers, by my estimation, fail miserably at oral argument anyway). And finally, it’s worth noting that employers (and courts) must also give reasonable accommodations like schools.

So yeah, people who need extended time in extremely artificial testing environments may have some areas of struggle in the workforce like all of us do. There’s a great chance those struggles aren’t prohibitive at all.

There is nothing artificial about a testing environment. You are being asked to recall information you have learned and are expected to know with some accuracy in a reasonable amount of time. How is that any different than what a job requires? Are people getting testing accommodations also going to take 2x as long to complete tasks at work that require any higher level thinking?

My numerous jobs in a variety of fields (with varying degrees of compensation) have NEVER required closed book recall under strict time constraints? Literally never had a boss called and said: “You have 45 minutes to answer the following questions. Consult no sources when answering this.”

Again with the lack of critical thinking. And you are once again too literal.

You’re really struggling to understand what people are telling you. Here’s a hint: just because a boss doesn’t give you explicit instructions and a specific timeframe doesn’t mean that a time constraint does not exist. And I won’t even try to explain how your small sampling of jobs is not remotely representative of EVERY job on the entire planet.

Maybe you need to give yourself some extra time to re-read this thread and really process some of the points that are being made. There is no time constraint!