SAHMs and marriage dynamics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

[Anonymous]

Most high earners I know are very busy and depend so much on their SAHM wives for everything from love, sex, companionship, home, kids, self, social live, travel plans, holiday stuff, tax, banking etc that they can't even dream of getting divorced and juggling it all. However, i'm talking about decent and loving couples who value each other and made a choice to define their roles.

[Anonymous]

As far as intellect, knowledge and conversational skills go, its not limited to shop talk or child raising and if it is for you, you are a boring person with narrow vision. Most physicians in my circle doesn't even want to talk shop because they want something different to stimulate their brains.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As far as intellect, knowledge and conversational skills go, its not limited to shop talk or child raising and if it is for you, you are a boring person with narrow vision. Most physicians in my circle doesn't even want to talk shop because they want something different to stimulate their brains.

Right? When I'm in a social setting, limited discussion about kids and careers/jobs is just fine. I'd much rather discuss books, local and national politics, world events, movies, and so forth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I see the exact dynamic except I will add, in those who've worked, Sahs seem a bit desperate to let everyone know they used to work. That insecurity and/or pride is why they tend towards shop talk as a reminder they worked before. It feels like a light small talk is best, as the time drags people show insecurities and awkwardness. Thankfully, with familiarity people learn about each other and those insecurities and inanities (kid talk) fade away and people communicate more naturally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it depends on the finances. I get it if one spouse makes $1m+ (fewer than 3 kids) and will do consistently for x many years - and net worth at least $5m, but any less than that it is weird for one spouse to not work if can bc how are you saving to set your kids up for best possible life?

I WOH right now, but come from a family with some inherited wealth. Accumulation of wealth to pass down to generations is not always the best thing you can do for kids. My two siblings were disincentivized from being ambitious because they knew there was a nest egg. I’ve also seen this in other families. Educating your child well, incentivizing them to challenge themselves, and teaching them to help others are far more important things you can do as parent rather than handing them a big bank account.

+1
I have little family money and went to Ivies for undergrad and law school and make far more than my parents ever did. I think it was actually my parents’ lack of wealth that motivated me to study hard and get to where I am today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I haven’t really seen this at all. DH and I are both physicians, and we go out with other couples, and I have coffee with the other wives in his group once every couple of months. I don’t see any big divide between women who had previous careers and those who didn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I am a SAHM who did not have kids until I was almost 40, so I spent many years in the work place. I did some very interesting things during that time and value those experiences. I wasn't sure I would be able to have kids, and when I was lucky enough to do so, working at a job outside the home didn't seem so important to me anymore. My husband fully supported my staying home and it has actually made his life much easier. I have never felt less than, or disrespected by him. He knows I am home by choice and could be kicking ass and taking names if that is what I wanted. Staying home or working is a personal decision based on varying factors for every family. I wish the bashing on both sides would stop - live and let live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I haven’t really seen this at all. DH and I are both physicians, and we go out with other couples, and I have coffee with the other wives in his group once every couple of months. I don’t see any big divide between women who had previous careers and those who didn’t.

I know very few physicians married to women without previous careers (regardless of whether they are SAHMs).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

Have you ever considered that you might not be getting the authentic truth either, and that a man might tell a working woman what he thinks she would want to hear? What is he going to say? “I really believe a woman should be at home with kids and I’m so glad my wife made a completely different choice than you did, and we really happy?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I’ve never experienced this as a SAHM. No one cares about your previous job unless they did a similar line of work themselves. I have friends who married young, SAHMS who worked on Wall Street, SAHMs who were pediatricians or lawyers, etc. It was a different phase of life and we talk about the here and now almost all of the time… the schools, upcoming community events, our kids’ extracurriculars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

Have you ever considered that you might not be getting the authentic truth either, and that a man might tell a working woman what he thinks she would want to hear? What is he going to say? “I really believe a woman should be at home with kids and I’m so glad my wife made a completely different choice than you did, and we really happy?”

People at my workplace do this. They also start out meetings that say thinks like. Thank you for coming gentlemen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I think it's just a status thing for you personally. If all your male friends think this way they are just all wealthy and you are not in touch with men who are overstretched trying to bring in money.

Why do you think it's a status thing, as opposed to the reasons I actually gave? Is it so hard to believe that there are people who feel lucky to have someone who is willing to focus on the kids and home life, rather than more money?

I just think it's a sign that the men you hang around are not worried about money is all. The men I meet who don't make enough don't think this way.

Outsourcing to make a two income family run smoothly causes marital stress too, when finances are tight. How much to outsource, do we really need to send laundry out, do we really need a twice-monthly housekeeper, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I’m a SAHM and I don’t think there IS a “SAH community.” Daytime kid activities tend to be a mix of SAH moms, flex schedule parents and nannies. But my social life is almost all working parents (or childless adults). It sounds like your dinners are a drag either way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

Yes - I have also seen this from male friends of mine. Not until 40s - I think it’s based on the kids being at school full time and the wife is still like - spending the day walking a dog and saying stuff takes up the whole time. Women get super mad when you suggest this but when so many women work and raise school aged kids it creates a cognitive dissonance

I am in my 40s, and my wife is a SAHM with school aged kids. I don't feel this way at all. When I see the families with two full time parents with multiple kids, it creates no cognitive dissonance at all because they seem overstretched and generally pretty harried and unhappy. So, yes, we could have more money if my wife worked full time, but I don't think it's worth and am glad she doesn't. I know several other men in my same circumstance, and I never hear that they wished their wives would work more. So it is all anecdotal, but I doubt you are really seeing this from your male friends, or you just have a different social set than I do.

I am not one of the PPs but I would consider that you probably would not hear your male friends talking about their dissatisfaction even if they had it. I worked for years in heavily male-dominated environments and as one of the few women, men confided in me in a way they didn’t confide with others. I remember several “please don’t tell anyone but…” conversations over the years. So I think both you and women you are responding to can both be right: you don’t hear their unhappiness, and the women you are responding to do, and it can be the same group of people.

I actually didn’t like being in that role and deliberately moved away from it: I ended up staying home myself for a period and then gravitating towards work that had a better male/female balance. But while I was there, I saw and learned a great deal about male unhappiness. It wasn’t inappropriate, and they certainly weren’t mean about their wives (they clearly loved them) but I saw a side of them that I’m pretty sure they didn’t show a lot of people.

This is actually a professional issue for women who work in male-dominated environments: the only woman gets put unconsciously in an an “office therapist” role. I was too young to realize it at the time, I just knew I didn’t like it. It’s only been years later that I’ve understood that this is a not uncommon work dynamic that nowadays women are warned about in professional conferences and such.

I’m just saying that people are complicated and I think men can simultaneously be proud and happy about having a SAHW and also very stressed and unhappy about it. It is very possible to hold all those feelings at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph but the original PP said they lose respect for their wives. I’m sure some do but that’s very different from being happy about the pros and bummed about the cons. I feel the same way about the very fact that my husband has a job that makes it much harder for me to work anything more than a hobby job.

I’m the PP and I definitely remember sensing a lack of respect from some of them. Not really talking badly about their wives, just more not really talking about them as if they were independent adults. But like I said, it’s been awhile and I was young and I probably missed some nuances. Honestly it makes me kind of mad for those wives years later.

NP here and I think the ones whose wives had kids later and leaned out of a good career (and often still kept a foot in the field) were talked about differently than the ones whose kids had wives earlier and whose careers never really launched and had kids early after a couple years of working in a job like admin assistant or teaching assistant. In the first case, the husband kind of knows the wife could step it up if absolutely needed and the wife has seen enough of the working world to truly understand how to be supportive. In the second case, these things aren't true.

I’m SAH right now due to a child’s medical issue. I’ve found that in the SAH community there is a quiet divide from women who’ve had meaty careers and those who married and had kids right away. Frankly, there is a wider range of conversation topics with women who’ve worked a lot. When we have dinners with those couples, we also end up with more “shop” talk regarding the husbands’ workplaces, which I tend to find interesting. (I love my children to pieces, but I find the constant childcare talk that some SAHMs gravitate towards to be boring).

I’m a SAHM and I don’t think there IS a “SAH community.” Daytime kid activities tend to be a mix of SAH moms, flex schedule parents and nannies. But my social life is almost all working parents (or childless adults). It sounds like your dinners are a drag either way.

It is hard to find a true "SAH Community" (even the SAHMs in daytime activities are often part time or are currently taking a few years to SAHM before going back to work) these days outside of two places: Military bases and certain churches.