SAHMs and marriage dynamics?

[Anonymous]

Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quick minor hijacking of the thread, if you will forgive me and humor the side question. DCUM readers skew affluent; I'd be curious to know how much this affluent group thinks is enough annual income from the working outside home parent to have the other parent SAH, in a two-kid family.

I got divorced, with elementary and middle school kids. We both worked fulltime out of the house and had a HHI of around $700k. Now I'm a single person kids half-time, and I earn about $400k. $400k doesn't feel like a enough to me. Well, it is definitely "enough" but I'm a worry wart with money, and so it feels like cutting it too close - what if I lose my job, etc.? Maybe $600k with a sense of job security or marketable / moveable / in-demand skills?

I hear you. I have a HHI of 600k and I make about half. I can’t imagine losing the other half. I’m not even sending my kids to private school.

Where on earth does all your money go? We make 1/3 what you make and live comfortably.

DP.
They probably have a lot of fixed expenses. Most of them are taxes and housing, but they probably also have student loans and possibly car payments. They are probably also saving a lot for retirement and kids’ college tuition. They probably live far from family, so they are paying to outsource some things like cleaning and childcare, and they have to fly to see them once or twice a year.

Taxes: $200k
Housing (mortgage, taxes, maintenance): $120k
Student loans (two professional degrees): $35k
Car payments: $15k
Insurance (car, health, life, disability): $10k
Retirement: $65k
Kids’ college: $15k
Outsourcing (childcare, yard, biweekly cleaning): $50k
Vacations (one real vacation and otherwise go to visit family): $20k

Total: $530k

So, they have roughly $6k/month to pay for everything else including food, clothes, entertainment, furniture, gas, kids activities, etc.

It sounds like a lot, but they are like, “How is it that we make $600k/yr and still have an iPhone 6 and buy most of our clothes at Target? We don’t even send our kids to private school.”

I can see how it seems impossible to think about living on half of that.

Oh, I’m crying hot tears for their money anxiety….

FWIW, we have a higher HHI, but I would never do the woe is me crap. We bank plenty of money knowing it gives us a huge cushion should something happen to one of our jobs. If you are that worried, buy a cheaper house, a non-luxury car, and talk to a half decent CPA about how not to pay $200K in taxes on $600K. Some of these whiny posts sound like people who have zero financial planning ability.

First of all, congrats on your high HHI and banking plenty of money. Good for you! Second of all, can you actually read the previous posts before making comments like this? As the 600k poster, I wasn't actually complaining about my income (just about how I would feel if it were halved), and PP was just guessing what my expenses might be. There's no whining here, and (hopefully) no one with zero financial planning ability. Reading ability, on the other hand...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We decided for me to SAH over 10 years ago when my DH made far less than he does now. I think he made MAYBE 100k/year. We cut back on everything to make it work. He makes around 1 mil/year now.

He probably wouldn't be where he is without your sacrifice. Sadly, not many men would do it for their wives.

I actually hate this. She is his mommy taking care of all personalities so he can be a workaholic. These kind of couples screw it up for parents who want an actual work-life balance.

I don’t see how another couple’s marriage and arrangement affects yours at all. You do you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

I don't think of earning money as any less valuable. It's still work. Women make many decisions that impact a lot of people. I grew up in a house where people just respected themselves and each other and there was no right or wrong way to choose as a vocation but you better be able to do it to the best of your ability.

[Anonymous]

I outsourced care when we desperately needed money to start a family and that person by far was better at taking care of my child than I was. I greatly respected their help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

It's beneath your husband, though.

You know nothing about my DH. He is VERY involved. And no, he doesn’t think wiping his preschool son’s arse is beneath him at all.

[Anonymous]

Is op still around? I'd like to hear how any discussions about this went. I think this is all individually dependent on both partners' characters.

I'm very happy as a sahm and I wouldn't change our dynamic at all. I think we are similar to dual income homes in dynamic (some a lot more than others!). We back each other up and allow the other to be/do/buy/go...whatever makes them happy but we both have a thing for finding our peace. We help each other when one is in need of extra help or just a total break. That might sound Pollyannaish but it's not all sunshine, we have stress and difficulties with personal issues, raising kids and scheduling but at least I can expect and give understanding.

If you want the dynamic to work you should each want just as much joy and good stuff for your partner as you do for yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

And your post about Hispanics is offensive.

+1 Ouch, that’s racist

I think it’s great that your teens love having long discussions with you but aren’t you also showing them that it’s normal for women to not work? Like dad makes all the money, mom takes care of us. So what is the point of them trying hard in school and having good careers if that’s their destiny too?

My mother stayed home and I went to grad school to get a "high-powered" job.

My mom staying home didn't affect my career decisions at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

And your post about Hispanics is offensive.

+1 Ouch, that’s racist

I think it’s great that your teens love having long discussions with you but aren’t you also showing them that it’s normal for women to not work? Like dad makes all the money, mom takes care of us. So what is the point of them trying hard in school and having good careers if that’s their destiny too?

I’m an attorney (my mom was a SAHM). By modeling being an attorney, I’m not showing my kids this is the only way, just that this is my way. My mom was a great SAHM -she approached it with energy, enthusiasm, joy, and a great work ethic. All those personality traits she modeled for me helped shape me to aim for my own particular goals. I do not understand this unimaginative, siloed thinking that we are such a brain dead people that we can only mimic what is right before our eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

It's beneath your husband, though.

You know nothing about my DH. He is VERY involved. And no, he doesn’t think wiping his preschool son’s arse is beneath him at all.

Women with full-time jobs, guess what, are also VERY involved. But they're not making domestic work the focus of their lives. Much like your husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

It's beneath your husband, though.

You know nothing about my DH. He is VERY involved. And no, he doesn’t think wiping his preschool son’s arse is beneath him at all.

Women with full-time jobs, guess what, are also VERY involved. But they're not making domestic work the focus of their lives. Much like your husband.

And? So what? You can make that choice. And I can make another. And guess what? One does not affect the other. Plus, you THINK you are highly involved, but you just aren’t able to be as engaged as a SAH. Sorry that’s the cold facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

And your post about Hispanics is offensive.

+1 Ouch, that’s racist

I think it’s great that your teens love having long discussions with you but aren’t you also showing them that it’s normal for women to not work? Like dad makes all the money, mom takes care of us. So what is the point of them trying hard in school and having good careers if that’s their destiny too?

I’m an attorney (my mom was a SAHM). By modeling being an attorney, I’m not showing my kids this is the only way, just that this is my way. My mom was a great SAHM -she approached it with energy, enthusiasm, joy, and a great work ethic. All those personality traits she modeled for me helped shape me to aim for my own particular goals. I do not understand this unimaginative, siloed thinking that we are such a brain dead people that we can only mimic what is right before our eyes.

Gotcha. Sorry then. I didn’t have a SAHM so I was just speculating but I take it back

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We decided for me to SAH over 10 years ago when my DH made far less than he does now. I think he made MAYBE 100k/year. We cut back on everything to make it work. He makes around 1 mil/year now.

He probably wouldn't be where he is without your sacrifice. Sadly, not many men would do it for their wives.

I actually hate this. She is his mommy taking care of all personalities so he can be a workaholic. These kind of couples screw it up for parents who want an actual work-life balance.

NP. You could save yourself a lot of angst if you just acknowledged that not all men whose wives stay at home are workaholics.

And no, we don't screw it up. Blame companies who make it extremely difficult to have work life balance. Blame the medical system that makes it extremely difficult to raise a special needs child without one parent having an absurd amount of flexibility. Blame our system that doesn't give paid leave and that makes childcare extremely expensive, often more expensive than the salary of one of the parents. We are just doing the best we can navigating the same system you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does division of labor in a two adult partnership have to be SO gender-based?

Women do the non-paid labor, men made the decisions that impact lots of people or make lots of money. Men have offices and staff, women wash dishes, vacuum and dress drooling toddlers.

If we are actually intellectual equals, why is this not offensive? (And who thinks it is not sending negative messages, to the children growing up in such environments?)

What’s offensive is YOUR thinking the domestic work is somehow beneath you. You’d be ok outsourcing it to your Hispanic housekeeper or nanny but won’t do it yourself? What message does THAT send your children? “Taking care of you and our home is beneath me because I’m SUCH an intellectual“. I happen to love dressing my “drooling” toddler. My teens love having long discussions with their educated mother who actually has time for those conversations because I am not rushing off to work or distracted. There is no better way for me to use my intellect and talent than in service to my family.

It's beneath your husband, though.

You know nothing about my DH. He is VERY involved. And no, he doesn’t think wiping his preschool son’s arse is beneath him at all.

Women with full-time jobs, guess what, are also VERY involved. But they're not making domestic work the focus of their lives. Much like your husband.

Bliss.

Most dual full time couples here are very involved too! As a sahm I do admire seeing both parents show up and get to know them as a family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a big law partner and a lot of my male colleagues have wives who are SAHMs. I'm not super involved in their marriages, obviously, but just from hearing how they talk amongst themselves, it seems like a lot of them lose respect for their wives. All conversations become about the kids or the household, and they start seeing their wives more as a mother to their kids than a true partner and equal. They do love their wives, and I think their marriages are mostly happy, but it does sometimes feel like they see their colleagues (male and female) as their peers and their wives as a step beneath - and that's with the good ones. As you probably know, cheating is rampant in big law. This may be unique to law, and big law in particular, where people tend to make their career their personality and most of their self worth.

My husband is a big law partner and I’m a SAHM and right now he’s working his a$$ off. What kind of law do you do that gives you time to hang out in DCUM in the middle of the day?

Aww, don't worry. He's probably not cheating on you.