Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was googling and I found this preview by Mona Eltahawy, page 32 starts to talk about hijabs and brings up a lot of the points brought up in this thread:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0v-cBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Most importantly to some pps, she's not white!

It's not "neocolonialism" to look at a backwards practice and decide it's backwards. Being white does not mean you are precluded from making any observations ever.

-non white person

Aren't you curious at all about why women who cover continue to cover, in their own words? Why are you only seeking out opinions that match your own?

I don't think anyone here is against women who cover *discussing* why they do so. I would certainly be interested. I also would be interested to hear those who cover explain to me why men are not required to do so and how they think it is not unfair to women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Words fail.

You're talking to me. I did, however, do two semesters of Islamic history in college (as part of a Middle Ages history major). I have also read the Quran, including tracking the changing historical context as the Quran was revealed. Willing to bet I know more about it than you do. I haven't been posting much on this thread, but if academic creds are an issue for you, than as a non-Muslim I may have better creds than you.

I can't tell if I'm communicating with an adult DCUM'er or an arrogant tween brat here. How old are you? This much I know, your two semesters in college don't put you on quite the same standing as Leila Ahmed, Karen Armstrong, and Mark Jeurgensmeyer, Muzammil Siddiqi. Muslims will not be interested in your interpretation or opinion, either.

The point, which you're apparently incapable of addressing, is that you're wrong about your own religion when you keep insisting that decades of study of history and Quranic Arabic are necessary. Or that in the absence of decades of study, Muslims should all to listen to a priestly class of your vaunted theologians. (Which of the many individuals and schools of theologians, BTW?)

Pretty sure Karen Armstrong agrees with me on the issue of decades of study not being required. You're saying something antithetical to the stated purpose of your own holy book. Not to mention, putting interpretation in the hands of men with their own cultural biases and agendas when it comes to things like veiling.

Being unable to address the point, you go for cheap insults. And since when does citing writers like Karen Armstrong, without mentioning her position on veiling, constitute an adult way to conduct an argument?

What was the cheap insult? That scholars such as Karen Armstrong, Muzammil Siddiqi, Mark Jeurgensmeyer, Leila Ahmed are far more knowledgeable than you with your two semesters of college study? That's not meant to insult; it's a fact. To consider this a cheap insult means you were offended. To be offended means you really do have quite an ego, based on your two semesters of college study I presume.

Some scholars will say hijab is required based on the fact that hair is an adornment and the Quran asks women to cover their adornments. Others will say the Quran does not require covering the hair but say many Muslim women cover their hair by choice. To many Muslim women it is a symbol of liberation from imposing western ideology that emphasizes revealing skin, the curves of a woman's body, and adornments. Other Muslim women sincerely believe since hair is an adornment, it must be covered. It is not a symbol of oppression to many Muslim women.

If every Muslim country got rid of hijab mandate, you may still see many Muslim women covering their hair. This would certainly crush Ms. Nomani's heart.

Sure they would continue to cover because otherwise they would be faced with harassment in the street from men conditioned to believe a woman showing her hair is impure and available.

Muslim women cover their hair in the US and sometimes women will even choose to reject a man for marriage should he ask to see her hair before marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, know a lot of Muslim women. Know fewer who wear hijab. One wears extremely elaborate eye makeup--gold eye shadow for going out to dinner. One is tiresome and arrogant and feels obliged to lecture on Islam to ignorant westerners--never mind I probably know more about Islam than she does. Oh, and her hijabs are custom made and she wears green contacts and flirts with men. Two others are ordinary housewives, one of whom can go on quite interminably about her illnesses. Another is an American who married a Muslim, who does outreach on anti-Muslim bigotry.

Frankly didn't not see it as my place to ask any of them why they wear the hijab. But in terms of personality and accomplishment, the non-hijabi Muslim women I know run circles around the hijabi lot. This includes the Saudi women I know who wear neither niqab nor hijab when they are in the US.

Oh I see. Now it's like "non-hijabis are superior human beings"?

Shiites are superior. Look at kingdom today

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Words fail.

You're talking to me. I did, however, do two semesters of Islamic history in college (as part of a Middle Ages history major). I have also read the Quran, including tracking the changing historical context as the Quran was revealed. Willing to bet I know more about it than you do. I haven't been posting much on this thread, but if academic creds are an issue for you, than as a non-Muslim I may have better creds than you.

I can't tell if I'm communicating with an adult DCUM'er or an arrogant tween brat here. How old are you? This much I know, your two semesters in college don't put you on quite the same standing as Leila Ahmed, Karen Armstrong, and Mark Jeurgensmeyer, Muzammil Siddiqi. Muslims will not be interested in your interpretation or opinion, either.

The point, which you're apparently incapable of addressing, is that you're wrong about your own religion when you keep insisting that decades of study of history and Quranic Arabic are necessary. Or that in the absence of decades of study, Muslims should all to listen to a priestly class of your vaunted theologians. (Which of the many individuals and schools of theologians, BTW?)

Pretty sure Karen Armstrong agrees with me on the issue of decades of study not being required. You're saying something antithetical to the stated purpose of your own holy book. Not to mention, putting interpretation in the hands of men with their own cultural biases and agendas when it comes to things like veiling.

Being unable to address the point, you go for cheap insults. And since when does citing writers like Karen Armstrong, without mentioning her position on veiling, constitute an adult way to conduct an argument?

What was the cheap insult? That scholars such as Karen Armstrong, Muzammil Siddiqi, Mark Jeurgensmeyer, Leila Ahmed are far more knowledgeable than you with your two semesters of college study? That's not meant to insult; it's a fact. To consider this a cheap insult means you were offended. To be offended means you really do have quite an ego, based on your two semesters of college study I presume.

Some scholars will say hijab is required based on the fact that hair is an adornment and the Quran asks women to cover their adornments. Others will say the Quran does not require covering the hair but say many Muslim women cover their hair by choice. To many Muslim women it is a symbol of liberation from imposing western ideology that emphasizes revealing skin, the curves of a woman's body, and adornments. Other Muslim women sincerely believe since hair is an adornment, it must be covered. It is not a symbol of oppression to many Muslim women.

If every Muslim country got rid of hijab mandate, you may still see many Muslim women covering their hair. This would certainly crush Ms. Nomani's heart.

Sure they would continue to cover because otherwise they would be faced with harassment in the street from men conditioned to believe a woman showing her hair is impure and available.

Muslim women cover their hair in the US and sometimes women will even choose to reject a man for marriage should he ask to see her hair before marriage.

You obviously haven't been following this thread or you would know the posters here wouldn't swallow this statement.

The majority of Muslim women in the US do not wear a hijab. Many Muslim women in majority Muslim countries do not wear a hijab unless it's required by law, although their numbers are becoming less. It has been amply demonstrated that earlier generations of Muslim women in most these countries did not wear a hijab, which is a modern innovation.

[Anonymous]

Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, know a lot of Muslim women. Know fewer who wear hijab. One wears extremely elaborate eye makeup--gold eye shadow for going out to dinner. One is tiresome and arrogant and feels obliged to lecture on Islam to ignorant westerners--never mind I probably know more about Islam than she does. Oh, and her hijabs are custom made and she wears green contacts and flirts with men. Two others are ordinary housewives, one of whom can go on quite interminably about her illnesses. Another is an American who married a Muslim, who does outreach on anti-Muslim bigotry.

Frankly didn't not see it as my place to ask any of them why they wear the hijab. But in terms of personality and accomplishment, the non-hijabi Muslim women I know run circles around the hijabi lot. This includes the Saudi women I know who wear neither niqab nor hijab when they are in the US.

Oh I see. Now it's like "non-hijabis are superior human beings"?

Shiites are superior. Look at kingdom today

Careful, somebody on this thread thinks that's just a four-letter word and will call you a bigot. Although if you're serious about the superiority thing (and KSA is a bad comparison, then that's a problem too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was googling and I found this preview by Mona Eltahawy, page 32 starts to talk about hijabs and brings up a lot of the points brought up in this thread:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0v-cBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Most importantly to some pps, she's not white!

It's not "neocolonialism" to look at a backwards practice and decide it's backwards. Being white does not mean you are precluded from making any observations ever.

-non white person

Aren't you curious at all about why women who cover continue to cover, in their own words? Why are you only seeking out opinions that match your own?

This is fair, so not having a hijab-wearing Muslim woman handy this weekend, I decided to google "Why I wear hijab." One of the first articles is this one, from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/the-freedom-of-the-hijab.html

As I have always thought, this is an intense and very personal decision, but I found her logic weirdly circular.

In a society that embraces uncovering, how can it be oppressive if I decided to cover up? I see hijab as the freedom to regard my body as my own concern and as a way to secure personal liberty in a world that objectifies women. I refuse to see how a woman’s significance is rated according to her looks and the clothes she wears. I am also absolutely certain that the skewed perception of women’s equality as the right to bare our breasts in public only contributes to our own objectification.

In a world besotted with the looks, body and sexuality of women, the hijab can be an assertive mode of individual feministic expression and rights. I regard my hijab to be a commanding question of “I control what you see, how is that not empowering” mixed with a munificent amount of authority emanating from the “My body is my own concern” clause.

I found this whole article to be mostly buzzwords strung together to form sentences. Are the choices really walking about half-naked or covering every inch of your body except for your face and hands? If I walk down the street in a sleeveless shirt, is my body no longer my own concern? How does covering hair secure personal liberty unless I am literally unable to walk around without covering my hair? I feel like fighting the objectification of women by wearing uncomfortable clothing to be a poorly thought out method. If all women walk around completely covered, this only fetishizes women's bodies further. I have seen this for myself in countries where women cover.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, know a lot of Muslim women. Know fewer who wear hijab. One wears extremely elaborate eye makeup--gold eye shadow for going out to dinner. One is tiresome and arrogant and feels obliged to lecture on Islam to ignorant westerners--never mind I probably know more about Islam than she does. Oh, and her hijabs are custom made and she wears green contacts and flirts with men. Two others are ordinary housewives, one of whom can go on quite interminably about her illnesses. Another is an American who married a Muslim, who does outreach on anti-Muslim bigotry.

Frankly didn't not see it as my place to ask any of them why they wear the hijab. But in terms of personality and accomplishment, the non-hijabi Muslim women I know run circles around the hijabi lot. This includes the Saudi women I know who wear neither niqab nor hijab when they are in the US.

Oh I see. Now it's like "non-hijabis are superior human beings"?

Shiites are superior. Look at kingdom today

Careful, somebody on this thread thinks that's just a four-letter word and will call you a bigot. Although if you're serious about the superiority thing (and KSA is a bad comparison, then that's a problem too.

I'm not about to say that one sect is better than the other, but I think PP was referring to KSA's recent actions that inflamed Shias.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/saudi-arabia-executes-47-people-including-prominent-shiite-cleric/2016/01/02/01bfee06-198e-4eb6-ab5e-a5bcc8fb85c6_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_saudis-305am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was googling and I found this preview by Mona Eltahawy, page 32 starts to talk about hijabs and brings up a lot of the points brought up in this thread:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0v-cBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Most importantly to some pps, she's not white!

It's not "neocolonialism" to look at a backwards practice and decide it's backwards. Being white does not mean you are precluded from making any observations ever.

-non white person

Aren't you curious at all about why women who cover continue to cover, in their own words? Why are you only seeking out opinions that match your own?

This is fair, so not having a hijab-wearing Muslim woman handy this weekend, I decided to google "Why I wear hijab." One of the first articles is this one, from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/the-freedom-of-the-hijab.html

As I have always thought, this is an intense and very personal decision, but I found her logic weirdly circular.

In a society that embraces uncovering, how can it be oppressive if I decided to cover up? I see hijab as the freedom to regard my body as my own concern and as a way to secure personal liberty in a world that objectifies women. I refuse to see how a woman’s significance is rated according to her looks and the clothes she wears. I am also absolutely certain that the skewed perception of women’s equality as the right to bare our breasts in public only contributes to our own objectification.

In a world besotted with the looks, body and sexuality of women, the hijab can be an assertive mode of individual feministic expression and rights. I regard my hijab to be a commanding question of “I control what you see, how is that not empowering” mixed with a munificent amount of authority emanating from the “My body is my own concern” clause.

I found this whole article to be mostly buzzwords strung together to form sentences. Are the choices really walking about half-naked or covering every inch of your body except for your face and hands? If I walk down the street in a sleeveless shirt, is my body no longer my own concern? How does covering hair secure personal liberty unless I am literally unable to walk around without covering my hair? I feel like fighting the objectification of women by wearing uncomfortable clothing to be a poorly thought out method. If all women walk around completely covered, this only fetishizes women's bodies further. I have seen this for myself in countries where women cover.

This is the Islamic feminist rationale for wearing hijab. You are right. This rationale is very much based on how others view one and gives short shrift to the fact that what one can physically do is quite limited in the hijab plus cloaking garments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)

13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)

[Anonymous]

In November, Saudi Arabia sentenced a Palestinian poet to death for renouncing Islam and criticizing the Saudi royal family.

Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. It is an authoritarian, theocratic monarchy that bases its laws on an extreme interpretation of Sharia (Islamic law). Its Wahhabi (Sunni extremist) ideology and frequent use of beheadings have led it to be compared to ISIS. Algerian journalist Kamel Daoud described Saudi Arabia as “an ISIS that has made it” in a November op-ed in The New York Times.

[Anonymous]

Where is Muslima?

she was a loyal fan of Saudia Arabia.

Of course she moved her family to US/DC/Baltimore rather than stay in the Kingdom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)

13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)

14. They look cute with those skinny jeans and skin-tight long-sleeved blouse, accessorizing nicely with the eye makeup and lipstick colors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In November, Saudi Arabia sentenced a Palestinian poet to death for renouncing Islam and criticizing the Saudi royal family.

Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. It is an authoritarian, theocratic monarchy that bases its laws on an extreme interpretation of Sharia (Islamic law). Its Wahhabi (Sunni extremist) ideology and frequent use of beheadings have led it to be compared to ISIS. Algerian journalist Kamel Daoud described Saudi Arabia as “an ISIS that has made it” in a November op-ed in The New York Times.

These appear to be false charges, at least based on the CNN story and the linked poetry. The first judge dismissed the charges of blasphemy (they are not supported by the poetry seen in the linked translation). However, the prosecutor appealed--sounds like we need some double jeopardy protection in Sharia.

The story mentions nothing about criticizing the royal family, and the poems do not appear to do that either. He did get a sentence for fraternizing with women--apparently he had pictures on his cell of himself with women he said he met at an art gallery. It appears that someone accused him of blasphemy to settle a personal score--an all too unsettling development that has happened numerous times in Pakistan. One wonders about the political clout of his accuser.

Life is much, much worse in ISIS land that it is in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/29/middleeast/saudi-arabia-poet-ashraf-fayadh-death-sentence/