US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“We stand with Ukraine” is the equivalent of “thoughts and prayers.” Meaningless.

Biden’s tough talk is meaningless. “We are ready. We are United.” Just words. We are watching Russia roll into Ukraine. I don’t get it.

Nobody wants a world war, but what’s the alternative? Just let Russia take Ukraine? Then what?

Please spell out what the US should do. I get the seeming futility, but what do you think should be done?

PP doesn’t want to do anything and just wants to try to tag Biden as weak.

I’m a Dem who voted for Biden, and I’m not merely trying to paint him as weak.

Rather, I don’t understand how waiting for Putin to take Ukraine and advance on another country makes sense. We’ve seemingly drawn a line at nato countries. If Putin is wise, he will simply avoid nato countries while taking others. And we will just hope that sanctions will make him stop? It won’t. The war on democracy has begun; it’s happening in Ukraine.

This isn’t Biden’s lone responsibility; NATO must step up.

I fear we are creating a new enemy in Ukraine. Those people have every right to be furious with the world that sat back and didn’t support them.

Taking Ukraine will embolden Russia. Heck, it will embolden China to take Taiwan…and perhaps other nations where they have access and a foothold.

The war on democracy began in 08 and continued to 14, at least in Europe. In Asia it began with Tiananmen, crushing of Hong Kong democracy, and continues with Chinese expansion in the SCS and genocide against their minorities. We shouldn’t tolerate these regimes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“We stand with Ukraine” is the equivalent of “thoughts and prayers.” Meaningless.

Biden’s tough talk is meaningless. “We are ready. We are United.” Just words. We are watching Russia roll into Ukraine. I don’t get it.

Nobody wants a world war, but what’s the alternative? Just let Russia take Ukraine? Then what?

Please spell out what the US should do. I get the seeming futility, but what do you think should be done?

PP doesn’t want to do anything and just wants to try to tag Biden as weak.

I’m a Dem who voted for Biden, and I’m not merely trying to paint him as weak.

Rather, I don’t understand how waiting for Putin to take Ukraine and advance on another country makes sense. We’ve seemingly drawn a line at nato countries. If Putin is wise, he will simply avoid nato countries while taking others. And we will just hope that sanctions will make him stop? It won’t. The war on democracy has begun; it’s happening in Ukraine.

This isn’t Biden’s lone responsibility; NATO must step up.

I fear we are creating a new enemy in Ukraine. Those people have every right to be furious with the world that sat back and didn’t support them.

Taking Ukraine will embolden Russia. Heck, it will embolden China to take Taiwan…and perhaps other nations where they have access and a foothold.

Unless you're planning to suit up on the front lines, and/or send your kids/grandkids to do the same, you need to STFU about sending troops. No one is impressed by your keyboard courage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect he's so brutal in Ukraine because he's trying to provoke NATO and its allies into further action, such as defending air space over Ukraine. The worse this gets, the harder it becomes ethically not to get involved. His deliberate and brutal targeting of civilians is designed to provoke us further into what looks a lot like the beginning of a world war.

I don't think that was his original intention - he really thought Ukrainians would welcome him, and the government would present much weaker opposition. But ultimately you're correct: there are reports of mass casualities, and as they increase, it will get harder and harder to avoid military intervention from NATO. I hope we can avoid it, because that is WWIII guaranteed.

What must happen, I hope, is that the West makes the sacrifice to stop buying oil and gas from Russia. It is literally what's propping up the Putin regime. No other client can make up for NATO countries, which are Russia's biggest clients by far. For some European countries, it will be a HUGE sacrifice - their populations will have difficulty heating their homes next winter, let alone using their cars. Agriculture will be particularly hard hit. Luckily, we are moving into Spring right now, so the psychological timing for popular opinion may be just lukewarm enough that governments in Germany and other places heavily dependent on Russian energy may be pressured into it, if images of genocide are emotional enough.

And that would be stop the war in its tracks. Russia cannot survive without its sales of energy.

So what we must advocate for, all of us, is a system of energy support for countries who need it the most (Germany, etc) in this time of crisis. We need to share resources. We need to make concessions to OPEC countries to strike some kind of deal. Pain at the pump will be significant, but that is the price of toppling the Russian regime which has been oppressing its citizens for decades, and murdering its neighbors and others civilians in war zones around the world.

Please call your senators and congresspeople.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“We stand with Ukraine” is the equivalent of “thoughts and prayers.” Meaningless.

Biden’s tough talk is meaningless. “We are ready. We are United.” Just words. We are watching Russia roll into Ukraine. I don’t get it.

Nobody wants a world war, but what’s the alternative? Just let Russia take Ukraine? Then what?

Please spell out what the US should do. I get the seeming futility, but what do you think should be done?

PP doesn’t want to do anything and just wants to try to tag Biden as weak.

I’m a Dem who voted for Biden, and I’m not merely trying to paint him as weak.

Rather, I don’t understand how waiting for Putin to take Ukraine and advance on another country makes sense. We’ve seemingly drawn a line at nato countries. If Putin is wise, he will simply avoid nato countries while taking others. And we will just hope that sanctions will make him stop? It won’t. The war on democracy has begun; it’s happening in Ukraine.

This isn’t Biden’s lone responsibility; NATO must step up.

I fear we are creating a new enemy in Ukraine. Those people have every right to be furious with the world that sat back and didn’t support them.

Taking Ukraine will embolden Russia. Heck, it will embolden China to take Taiwan…and perhaps other nations where they have access and a foothold.

You post the same talking points as Rudy Giuliani. Trump is weak. This is why you and your fellow republicans are now being drawn to Putin. You want the US to be what Russia is.

Wow, a way to extrapolate. Many of you here don't want a 2 party system you want everyone to vote only for the Democratic party, which will lead to a one-party system, exactly what you get in the former Communist regimes: no tolerance for alternative opinions, censorship, full control of population. Some of the nonsense many of your post here about screening immigrants and refugees for their ideological beliefs and propensity to vote Republican vs. Democrat is indicative of this line of thinking. Guess where it gets you? Closer to the likes of Russia or China where authoritarianism and one-party system rule. The irony of this..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect he's so brutal in Ukraine because he's trying to provoke NATO and its allies into further action, such as defending air space over Ukraine. The worse this gets, the harder it becomes ethically not to get involved. His deliberate and brutal targeting of civilians is designed to provoke us further into what looks a lot like the beginning of a world war.

I don't think that was his original intention - he really thought Ukrainians would welcome him, and the government would present much weaker opposition. But ultimately you're correct: there are reports of mass casualities, and as they increase, it will get harder and harder to avoid military intervention from NATO. I hope we can avoid it, because that is WWIII guaranteed.

What must happen, I hope, is that the West makes the sacrifice to stop buying oil and gas from Russia. It is literally what's propping up the Putin regime. No other client can make up for NATO countries, which are Russia's biggest clients by far. For some European countries, it will be a HUGE sacrifice - their populations will have difficulty heating their homes next winter, let alone using their cars. Agriculture will be particularly hard hit. Luckily, we are moving into Spring right now, so the psychological timing for popular opinion may be just lukewarm enough that governments in Germany and other places heavily dependent on Russian energy may be pressured into it, if images of genocide are emotional enough.

And that would be stop the war in its tracks. Russia cannot survive without its sales of energy.

So what we must advocate for, all of us, is a system of energy support for countries who need it the most (Germany, etc) in this time of crisis. We need to share resources. We need to make concessions to OPEC countries to strike some kind of deal. Pain at the pump will be significant, but that is the price of toppling the Russian regime which has been oppressing its citizens for decades, and murdering its neighbors and others civilians in war zones around the world.

Please call your senators and congresspeople.

Will you be disappointed when all of this blows over just like Covid and people in the west still get to keep their homes warm and won't be trapped without transportation?

PP you replied to. I'm French, and have lived in the US for years. France doesn't depend that much on Russian energy compare to Germany but we would still suffer from not buying it. Perhaps if you're American, you don't have that gut feeling of horror that Russia has started a land war in Europe less than a century after WWII. Apart from Pearl Harbor, you didn't have aggression on your soil. For Europeans, the scale and intent of this new Putin aggression is unacceptable. We have live memory of the last world war. We have the bomb craters in our landscape, and the bunkers and all the cemeteries (including the American cemetery in Normandy).

I'm not sure I understand your question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Were we really this involved in the Balkans? And Balkans didn't present nuclear danger

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do we gain by leaving Ukraine to fight Russia on its own?
I don’t get it. Now nato is worried where Putin will go after Ukraine. Why not prevent Russia from taking Ukraine and rolling into Moldova, etc. I don’t get it.

Why aren’t we using drones to handle Russian convoys?

I suspect he's so brutal in Ukraine because he's trying to provoke NATO and its allies into further action, such as defending air space over Ukraine. The worse this gets, the harder it becomes ethically not to get involved. His deliberate and brutal targeting of civilians is designed to provoke us further into what looks a lot like the beginning of a world war.

Yes, yes he is. Violating Swedish airspace today.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-armed-forces-says-russian-fighter-jets-violated-swedish-airspace-2022-03-02/?taid=621fd29e9596d30001f9996b&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do we gain by leaving Ukraine to fight Russia on its own?
I don’t get it. Now nato is worried where Putin will go after Ukraine. Why not prevent Russia from taking Ukraine and rolling into Moldova, etc. I don’t get it.

Why aren’t we using drones to handle Russian convoys?

I suspect he's so brutal in Ukraine because he's trying to provoke NATO and its allies into further action, such as defending air space over Ukraine. The worse this gets, the harder it becomes ethically not to get involved. His deliberate and brutal targeting of civilians is designed to provoke us further into what looks a lot like the beginning of a world war.

Yes, yes he is. Violating Swedish airspace today.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-armed-forces-says-russian-fighter-jets-violated-swedish-airspace-2022-03-02/?taid=621fd29e9596d30001f9996b&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Hmm... Still non-NATO for the time being though

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Chechnya’s destruction appears to be his game-plan.

But this time, it’s different.

He is slaughtering civilians just a few miles from EU countries; NATO countries.

And this time, he can not control the massive numbers of western journalists witnessing it all.

Another factor: Europeans relate to the Ukrainian people. They look and speak like the part of the EU we used to call Eastern Europe. Europe won’t sand for this, and we have many weapons of economic destruction to deploy against Russia and Belarus.

In contrast, when the Moslem Chechens were slaughtered, the Moslem and Arab world failed to do much to stop Putin.

[Anonymous]

One million Ukrainians have fled as refugees.

Has there ever been as quick and orderly of a refugee exodus?

I think not.

Speaks to the human capital of Ukrainians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Chechnya’s destruction appears to be his game-plan.

But this time, it’s different.

He is slaughtering civilians just a few miles from EU countries; NATO countries.

And this time, he can not control the massive numbers of western journalists witnessing it all.

Another factor: Europeans relate to the Ukrainian people. They look and speak like the part of the EU we used to call Eastern Europe. Europe won’t sand for this, and we have many weapons of economic destruction to deploy against Russia and Belarus.

In contrast, when the Moslem Chechens were slaughtered, the Moslem and Arab world failed to do much to stop Putin.

I don't know if you listen to The Daily podcast, but today they talked about EU actions. Apparently Zelensky's speech to the EU really changed minds about their levels of support, dramatically. Anyway, it was a really interesting episode today. Some of their episodes in general are hit or miss, but I'd recommend this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Were we really this involved in the Balkans? And Balkans didn't present nuclear danger

Not at first, but remember the Balkans was more of a civil war/bad breakup after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. It was not one, long-established large sovereign power invading a less long established sovereign power. It wasn't until there was an actual genocide going on that a decision was made to go in.

One thing not discussed enough in the Ukraine invasion is that Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for an assurance/guarantee of sovereignty. They are owed support even if it's not direct military assistance at this time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Chechnya’s destruction appears to be his game-plan.

But this time, it’s different.

He is slaughtering civilians just a few miles from EU countries; NATO countries.

And this time, he can not control the massive numbers of western journalists witnessing it all.

Another factor: Europeans relate to the Ukrainian people. They look and speak like the part of the EU we used to call Eastern Europe. Europe won’t sand for this, and we have many weapons of economic destruction to deploy against Russia and Belarus.

In contrast, when the Moslem Chechens were slaughtered, the Moslem and Arab world failed to do much to stop Putin.

I don't know if you listen to The Daily podcast, but today they talked about EU actions. Apparently Zelensky's speech to the EU really changed minds about their levels of support, dramatically. Anyway, it was a really interesting episode today. Some of their episodes in general are hit or miss, but I'd recommend this one.

People are trying so hard to dance around the fact that Ukrainians aren’t brown/black and/or Islamic.

1 million refugees relatively moved safely in a week is unheard of before.

Let’s be clear what the parsimonious reason is why it easily happened but never before

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Russia's disaster of an invasion has the opposite effect I think - it makes it much harder for China to invade Taiwan. Look at the vehemently negative world reaction towards Russia that is going to obliterate their economy. It has sped up Germany's diversification away from Russian energy up to 2035 (down from 2050). China went to great lengths during the winter Olympics this year to propagandize the opening ceremony where they tried to show that they were a peaceful country and a great world unifier. Invading Taiwan would ruing the soft image projection Xi is trying to promulgate, and would stoke an anti-Chinese backlash across the world just like what Russia has gotten. That's exactly the opposite of what Xi and the CCP want. The only way they'll take over Taiwan is if they start moving in mainland Chinese and install a pro-Chinese govt to change the culture of many years, just like what they're doing to Hong Kong.

Russia’s invasion has not gone as planned but any military plan ends as soon as action starts. Putin planned to conquer Ukraine in 48 hours. That’s not happening. But now Putin is raining down artillery on Ukrainian cities. Sanctions won’t stop him anymore than they’ve stopped Iran and North Korea.

Tens of thousands of ethnic Russian women and children died in Chechnya, population 1.3M people. Putin has no remorse or care about his own people. For a preview of where this goes look to the Balkans and Milosevic.

Were we really this involved in the Balkans? And Balkans didn't present nuclear danger

Not at first, but remember the Balkans was more of a civil war/bad breakup after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. It was not one, long-established large sovereign power invading a less long established sovereign power. It wasn't until there was an actual genocide going on that a decision was made to go in.

One thing not discussed enough in the Ukraine invasion is that Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for an assurance/guarantee of sovereignty. They are owed support even if it's not direct military assistance at this time.

The Bosnian conflict was horrific. I was a child living in Paris at the time, and was shielded from the worst news, but I still understood it was a nightmare situation. I hope to goodness this Ukrainian war will not devolve into similar brutalities and tortures.

[Anonymous]

RIP