get over name brand / prestige obsession

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I happen to know a lot of people with PhDs from top schools and most of them did not go to HYPSM for their undergrad degrees. Just a personal anecdote but I suspect it mirrors whats out there. Perhaps all the HYPSM students are headed off to lucrative banking or consulting firm careers instead of aiming for intellectual prestige.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I happen to know a lot of people with PhDs from top schools and most of them did not go to HYPSM for their undergrad degrees. Just a personal anecdote but I suspect it mirrors whats out there. Perhaps all the HYPSM students are headed off to lucrative banking or consulting firm careers instead of aiming for intellectual prestige.

Two (maybe 3) factors at work here. (1) a few prestigious/relatively small schools (like HYPS) can be grossly overrepresented in PhD admissions and still constitute a minority of all PhD students (globally, at elite schools, or in a particular program) (2) admissions (which is where the prestige advantage functions most strongly) does not = outcome (who finishes, who gets which jobs). Once you’re in grad school, you’re on your own wrt performance. (3) depending on where you are in your profession, who you see/what seems normal might be skewed. A Big Law firm, for example, may have a different mix of undergrad degrees than a DA’s office, even if both have lots of (or the same percentage of) JDs from prestigious law schools.

[Anonymous]

Well, DD is looking at vet school (different from med school, I know) and their students come from all different schools, large and small, prestigious (according to DCUM) and less so. Most are from state publics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation, mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation, mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

Law is pretty much prestige driven. Which field in academia?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation, mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

Law is pretty much prestige driven. Which field in academia?

Primarily, one soc sci (not ec) and one STEM field (not CS/math/engineering), with some exposure to other adjacent soc sci & humanities disciplines). And, again, PhD admissions — not outcomes.

Also, FWIW, I don’t think people should be obsessed with/driven by prestige. I just think it’s worth understanding when, where, and how it matters. To me, the “grad school prestige is what really matters” mantra is just kicking that can even further down the road. Also, for most people/jobs none of this stuff matters. Sure you might not get a Supreme Court clerkship or a tenure-track job at Yale. But there are countless other reasons why that’s true and it doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful and/or rewarding career in law or academia or whatever it is you want to do. (Though there are lots of other reasons why that dream might not come true either. It’s not as if we live in a society wherein every talented, hard-working, well-educated person thrives/is appreciated/is amply rewarded for their efforts or abilities).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation,
mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

So, one person’s anecdotes. Not based on stats. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation, mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

Law is pretty much prestige driven. Which field in academia?

Primarily, one soc sci (not ec) and one STEM field (not CS/math/engineering), with some exposure to other adjacent soc sci & humanities disciplines). And, again, PhD admissions — not outcomes.

Also, FWIW, I don’t think people should be obsessed with/driven by prestige. I just think it’s worth understanding when, where, and how it matters. To me, the “grad school prestige is what really matters” mantra is just kicking that can even further down the road. Also, for most people/jobs none of this stuff matters. Sure you might not get a Supreme Court clerkship or a tenure-track job at Yale. But there are countless other reasons why that’s true and it doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful and/or rewarding career in law or academia or whatever it is you want to do. (Though there are lots of other reasons why that dream might not come true either. It’s not as if we live in a society wherein every talented, hard-working, well-educated person thrives/is appreciated/is amply rewarded for their efforts or abilities).

How many data samples did you have? Are you a parent of children applying to these fields?

BTW, graduate schools tend to admit lots of the students who did the under in the same universities. In many foreign countries, there are very good research institutes that do not have undergraduate programs, and for these institutes, the graduate students admissions are evenly distributed between elite and non-elite universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

Can you cite where you are pulling your stats from? Thanks.

If you want to turn this is into a research paper, I’ll eagerly await your findings. I’m reflecting on 40 years of observation, mostly in law and academia, of people from both sides of the prestige divide navigating college (generally) and grad school admissions.

Law is pretty much prestige driven. Which field in academia?

Primarily, one soc sci (not ec) and one STEM field (not CS/math/engineering), with some exposure to other adjacent soc sci & humanities disciplines). And, again, PhD admissions — not outcomes.

Also, FWIW, I don’t think people should be obsessed with/driven by prestige. I just think it’s worth understanding when, where, and how it matters. To me, the “grad school prestige is what really matters” mantra is just kicking that can even further down the road. Also, for most people/jobs none of this stuff matters. Sure you might not get a Supreme Court clerkship or a tenure-track job at Yale. But there are countless other reasons why that’s true and it doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful and/or rewarding career in law or academia or whatever it is you want to do. (Though there are lots of other reasons why that dream might not come true either. It’s not as if we live in a society wherein every talented, hard-working, well-educated person thrives/is appreciated/is amply rewarded for their efforts or abilities).

How many data samples did you have? Are you a parent of children applying to these fields?

BTW, graduate schools tend to admit lots of the students who did the under in the same universities. In many foreign countries, there are very good research institutes that do not have undergraduate programs, and for these institutes, the graduate students admissions are evenly distributed between elite and non-elite universities.

My DC is already in a STEM PhD program. Re graduate schools favoring undergrads from their own schools — certainly wrt American universities you can see that in elite law school stats (and med school in some cases — most obviously in BA/MD programs). And I think I’ve seen similar indications wrt B-schools and Ed Schools (again BA/MA programs are an indicator). My sense is it’s more of a factor wrt professional schools than PhD programs, where, at least in humanities/social sciences, the best advice is go elsewhere, expand your network, see other ways of doing things. Could be different in STEM or situations involving access to specialized equipment, ongoing collaboration, etc. And may also depend on how you spent your undergrad years (e.g. if you’d already learned what a particular faculty had to teach you vs if you came to the major late, changed subfields, just connected with a new mentor, etc.)

In case it wasn’t previously clear, I’m only talking about the US and, given the topic of the thread, have been focused on elite institutions.

Re data samples. While at different times and for different reasons, I’ve seen data for specific institutions involving things like median GPA, grad/professional school placements, undergrad schools of people admitted to particular PhD programs, I have no interest in doing quantitative research on this topic. Not my field of interest, not my preferred methodology, lots of research design/data collection issues, and I’ve already learned what I’ve needed to know. But if anyone is really trying to figure this out for themselves and only trusts data, you can certainly find some of it online if you look. I’m not going to do it for you. I’m just passing on my observations (and providing a general sense of vantage point/limits), in case it’s helpful to someone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I happen to know a lot of people with PhDs from top schools and most of them did not go to HYPSM for their undergrad degrees. Just a personal anecdote but I suspect it mirrors whats out there. Perhaps all the HYPSM students are headed off to lucrative banking or consulting firm careers instead of aiming for intellectual prestige.

Two (maybe 3) factors at work here. (1) a few prestigious/relatively small schools (like HYPS) can be grossly overrepresented in PhD admissions and still constitute a minority of all PhD students (globally, at elite schools, or in a particular program) (2) admissions (which is where the prestige advantage functions most strongly) does not = outcome (who finishes, who gets which jobs). Once you’re in grad school, you’re on your own wrt performance. (3) depending on where you are in your profession, who you see/what seems normal might be skewed. A Big Law firm, for example, may have a different mix of undergrad degrees than a DA’s office, even if both have lots of (or the same percentage of) JDs from prestigious law schools.

I think that this is true, but that students who do well in the honors program at their state flagship, or at some place like Alabama or Arizona State, if they come from a state with a weak state flagship, may do almost as well in serious Ph.D. programs, because, first, the stats for the students in solid state flagship honors programs are at least as good as the stats for HYPSM students.

Second, grad school admissions people will see that a lot of the Top 30 school admissions process was based on nonsense, and that it's insane for most families to spend $280,000 to send their bright kids to, say, Washington University, rather paying, maybe, $60,000 all in to send their kids to the Good State U Honors College.

And I went to Washington University. I loved Washington University. I have a nice career. A lot of the people I went to Wash. U. have amazing careers. It's probably a lot more comfortable to go there than to go to the University of Maryland. But, in general, no way can it be worth $220,000 for a donut-hole-type family to send a typical great kid to Wash. U. rather than to the University of Maryland.

[Anonymous]

I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph (i.e. in general, there’s no point in paying for “prestige/a name brand” if you have access to an excellent public university that is significantly more affordable.

But the first and second points, rooted as they are in the context of high school stats/college admissions, don’t ring true to me. College happened in the meanwhile. And different choices/opportunities/standards/expectations/networks in college created different candidates even if it could be argued, based on GPAs/SAT scores, that some candidates left HS as intellectual peers.

I’m not saying that it’s a you-can’t-get-there-from-here scenario. Just that the kind of mental discounting described in paragraph #2 never happens (though there may be separate pools/an interest in putting together a diverse class) and the scenario in number 1 (equally smart kids go to radically different schools (Arizona State vs Princeton) and come out close to equally well prepared for grad work) is rare and probably depends on kid at ASU recognizing the need for internal motivation/deliberate prep for GS at an early stage and/or a faculty advisor recognizing talent and getting involved in helping the kid prepare. Typically, I’d say that the ASU alumn who performs as well as the HYPSM alumns in grad school started out smarter and/or more determined/disciplined/focused than they were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

Check out the bio of Michael Jordan, a professor in Berkeley and a big name in CS, with a undergraduate degree from Univ of Louisiana.

I just read his new book- a memoir. So inspiring!