get over name brand / prestige obsession

[Anonymous]

You will drive yourself nuts trying to optimize every little aspect of your life to get the highest possible odds of success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

This is not true at all.

Why do you say that? (I’m not the PP you’re responding to, but I think what s/he has said is accurate.). Where/whether you go to grad school is largely a function of where you were an undergrad and how well you did as an undergrad. Middle of-the-pack Harvard undergrads will get into better grad programs than all but the most exceptional students at schools that aren’t considered academic powerhouses. And the middle-of-the-pack Harvard undergrads are likely to have higher GPAs than the top 25% at larger schools. (You can see that as fair or unfair — I’m not opining on that issue — just saying GPAs skew higher.)

While it would not be accurate to say* you can’t get there (top grad or professional school) from here (college with no prestige), the odds of that happening are a helluva lot lower than they would have been had you came from one of the most prestigious colleges and that's true even in primarily stats-driven processes like law & med school admissions.

So, yes, if your grad program is much more prestigious than your undergrad school, your undergrad degree probably ceases to matter. And lots of people may go up a notch prestige-wise (e.g. only go to grad school if it enhances their resumé). But top grad programs (and good but not great ones) tend to favor undergrads from a handful of very prestigious colleges.

*and quoted PP did not say

At my prestigious grad program, they looked mostly at GRE scores. Most of those who were admitted and funded had perfect GRE scores. They were from all different kinds of schools and many different countries. For anything involving math or data, you're looking at standardized test scores for a baseline of skills. Letters of recommendation are much less important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

I disagree. Maybe you are correct about career outcomes, but the actual quality of education is a lot different between top schools and Southwest X State. The faculty is better, the other students are better, etc.

I will say that actual education in the humanities, though, seems to be struggling everywhere, as kids all parrot back the media narrative on many issues and professors fail to teach them how to analyze opposing viewpoints and argue a position without reverting to emotion or ad hominem.

I agree about the quality of education, but disagree about better faculty at Brand Name U. The top professors at Brand Name U are not teaching undergrads, and many top schools rely on graduate students for that. For the more junior faculty, the academic positions are so competitive, especially in the humanities, that you can find great professors everywhere. The difference in quality comes from the student body because the professors are basically adjusting to their audience. I know, I got my undergraduate degree in math from Southwest X State, and one of my kids is now getting his from a top school. The difference in quality is incomparable, and given the difference in depth of the course work, I’d have a hard time justifying hiring someone from my alma mater over my son’s school.

So you're saying "current you" wouldn't have hired "young you" now? You wouldn't be working at your current company?

THe argument about the faculty at Ivies, etc. being significantly better than the faculty at third tier schools doesn't always hold. There is, for example, a massive oversupply of PHd's in fields like philosophy. I know of a guy with a doctorate from Cambridge who teaches at a relatively unknown LAC in Alabama. He publishes a ton too and gets grants. It's called "being underplaced" or something like that -- being much better than the school that you wind up at. Happens A LOT these days! YOu can meet terrific faculty now at some of the strangest schools, and if you can find these faculty at your third tier LAC you will do very well!
One more thing: I've served on committees awarding prestigious fellowships to faculty, and often there is a genuine attempt to NOT give all of these awards to the same six people from Harvard and Yale, so you are just as likely to find people with Mellon Fellowships, NEH, NHS, etc. at second and third tier schools. These days, there's a lot of emphasis on outreach to HBCU's, for example. It's kind of simplistic to say that only Harvard has good faculty winning fellowships. It's also wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

Check out the bio of Michael Jordan, a professor in Berkeley and a big name in CS, with a undergraduate degree from Univ of Louisiana.

I recently met a guy who was doing a fully funded PhD in the UK through a prestigious fellowship who started out at a community college. I think we'll be seeing more of this as college gets ever more expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grad school is much more important than undergraduate school.

And yet, if you leave bumble fxk Alabama with a low ranking degree in biology you're less likely to get a spot in med school than if you did well at Harvard College as an undergrad.

And if you took an arts / humanities degree at Harvard you may get your PhD paid for. whereas coming from Alabama (or other similar place) not likely at all.

Check out the bio of Michael Jordan, a professor in Berkeley and a big name in CS, with a undergraduate degree from Univ of Louisiana.

I recently met a guy who was doing a fully funded PhD in the UK through a prestigious fellowship who started out at a community college. I think we'll be seeing more of this as college gets ever more expensive.

Also there’s people like Tara Westover and J.D Vance (I don’t agree with his politics but I think it’s pretty cool how he got to YLS)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

Right?? The CTCL and prestige threads are filled respectively with folks mocking "no name" LACs or UVA. Why are you reading the CTCL thread if grad from your selective LAC anointed you as one of the chosen? Don't you get sullied just opening it? And how do people get themselves so wrapped around the axle of UVA? Whatever happened to - if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

Right?? The CTCL and prestige threads are filled respectively with folks mocking "no name" LACs or UVA. Why are you reading the CTCL thread if grad from your selective LAC anointed you as one of the chosen? Don't you get sullied just opening it? And how do people get themselves so wrapped around the axle of UVA? Whatever happened to - if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all?

People aren't mocking the "CTCL" schools for being no-name, they're mocking it because it's an utterly daft branding exercise and very transparently desperate. I'd have infinitely more respect for someone that just says they went to a small LAC (or better yet, just named it specifically) than say they went to a "CTCL".

It's also weird because the CTCL boosters are pretending to be unpretentious and egalitarian and lovey-dovey, but simultaneously will sneer at other LACs that they deem beneath them, insisting on their own special-ness. It's weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

Right?? The CTCL and prestige threads are filled respectively with folks mocking "no name" LACs or UVA. Why are you reading the CTCL thread if grad from your selective LAC anointed you as one of the chosen? Don't you get sullied just opening it? And how do people get themselves so wrapped around the axle of UVA? Whatever happened to - if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all?

People aren't mocking the "CTCL" schools for being no-name, they're mocking it because it's an utterly daft branding exercise and very transparently desperate. I'd have infinitely more respect for someone that just says they went to a small LAC (or better yet, just named it specifically) than say they went to a "CTCL".

It's also weird because the CTCL boosters are pretending to be unpretentious and egalitarian and lovey-dovey, but simultaneously will sneer at other LACs that they deem beneath them, insisting on their own special-ness. It's weird.

Ah, you have risen from your slumber. No one says "I went to a CTCL" IRL. No one. Yes, a few folks have written that on this board because recognize the acronym, but dollars to donuts they do not say that in conversation.

Loren Pope coined the phrase. Yes, in the changing higher ed market over the last few decades, schools in his book now market themselves that way. That's what happens in the real world.

And please cite here where any CTCL booster on DCUM or IRL sneers @ other LACs.

This is all a fever dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking back, one of my biggest regrets/missteps as a parent was putting way too much pressure on my kids to excel in school with the goal of getting into top colleges. The pressure worked, and they did do well and go "name brand," but fast forward a few years and it really didn't make much of a difference. They're all happy and successful, but so are their friends who didn't do as well as they did and didn't end up at top schools. Time is proving to be the great equalizer.

Just something for parents to keep in mind when they're still in the midst of things. I realize I'm probably preaching to the wrong crowd.

The main point I see in your post is about the pressure you put on your kids. Regardless of what you think of brand prestige that is a bad thing to do. See this film:

This is on point and so is OP. Previous generations tried to raise responsible citizens, now everyone is obsessed with getting their kids to the best colleges. Going Ivy League doesn't guarantee happiness, and this kind of pressure can ruin someone's life. My first born is very driven, partly from peer pressure. We try hard not to add any pressure and I'll admit I have to remind myself to try to tamp down any anxiety I might have. Cost of college, hopes of merit awards add to it as well, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You will drive yourself nuts trying to optimize every little aspect of your life to get the highest possible odds of success.

And yet, these are the most successful people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking back, one of my biggest regrets/missteps as a parent was putting way too much pressure on my kids to excel in school with the goal of getting into top colleges. The pressure worked, and they did do well and go "name brand," but fast forward a few years and it really didn't make much of a difference. They're all happy and successful, but so are their friends who didn't do as well as they did and didn't end up at top schools. Time is proving to be the great equalizer.

Just something for parents to keep in mind when they're still in the midst of things. I realize I'm probably preaching to the wrong crowd.

The main point I see in your post is about the pressure you put on your kids. Regardless of what you think of brand prestige that is a bad thing to do. See this film:

This is on point and so is OP. Previous generations tried to raise responsible citizens, now everyone is obsessed with getting their kids to the best colleges. Going Ivy League doesn't guarantee happiness, and this kind of pressure can ruin someone's life. My first born is very driven, partly from peer pressure. We try hard not to add any pressure and I'll admit I have to remind myself to try to tamp down any anxiety I might have. Cost of college, hopes of merit awards add to it as well, of course.

HA! Maybe if you’re a rich person feel good movies like Race To Nowhere will resonate with you. Meanwhile, income inequality grows every day and half of all Americans can’t afford a $500 emergency. I’ll do my damn best to make sure my kid ends up on the right side of this horrific divide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

Right?? The CTCL and prestige threads are filled respectively with folks mocking "no name" LACs or UVA. Why are you reading the CTCL thread if grad from your selective LAC anointed you as one of the chosen? Don't you get sullied just opening it? And how do people get themselves so wrapped around the axle of UVA? Whatever happened to - if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all?

People aren't mocking the "CTCL" schools for being no-name, they're mocking it because it's an utterly daft branding exercise and very transparently desperate. I'd have infinitely more respect for someone that just says they went to a small LAC (or better yet, just named it specifically) than say they went to a "CTCL".

It's also weird because the CTCL boosters are pretending to be unpretentious and egalitarian and lovey-dovey, but simultaneously will sneer at other LACs that they deem beneath them, insisting on their own special-ness. It's weird.

THANK YOU. So spot on. I could’ve have said it better myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you’re 100% correct, but no one believes it until they see it. It’s something that people just have to experience to understand, and even then, some never do, which is how you end up with some people who wrap their entire identity around the ranking of their undergrad school and literally can’t shut up about it, even though they’re working alongside and under others who went everywhere else.

Haha. So true.

I always believed as you do now, OP.

I did not attend a fancy school for money and other reasons. I don’t see that friends who attended fancier brand name schools fared much better or have drastically better lives.

The famous ones didn’t even finish college!

Ding ding ding. Know two people - one a former colleague, one an IL - who have wrapped nearly all of their identities around their undergrad ranking even though they both have had relatively successful careers and largely on their own terms as women and moms. Yet none of that seems to sate their need to assert where they went to undergrad whenever possible. The IL even went so far to tell me that Ivies (my grad degree is from one) tend to take a sprinkling of folks from no name schools to satisfy geography needs - basically implying that my admit was a type of affirmative action. Who does that?

Desperately insecure people do that. Ie a good handful of the folks on this board.

Right?? The CTCL and prestige threads are filled respectively with folks mocking "no name" LACs or UVA. Why are you reading the CTCL thread if grad from your selective LAC anointed you as one of the chosen? Don't you get sullied just opening it? And how do people get themselves so wrapped around the axle of UVA? Whatever happened to - if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all?

People aren't mocking the "CTCL" schools for being no-name, they're mocking it because it's an utterly daft branding exercise and very transparently desperate. I'd have infinitely more respect for someone that just says they went to a small LAC (or better yet, just named it specifically) than say they went to a "CTCL".

It's also weird because the CTCL boosters are pretending to be unpretentious and egalitarian and lovey-dovey, but simultaneously will sneer at other LACs that they deem beneath them, insisting on their own special-ness. It's weird.

Ah, you have risen from your slumber. No one says "I went to a CTCL" IRL. No one. Yes, a few folks have written that on this board because recognize the acronym, but dollars to donuts they do not say that in conversation.

Loren Pope coined the phrase. Yes, in the changing higher ed market over the last few decades, schools in his book now market themselves that way. That's what happens in the real world.

And please cite here where any CTCL booster on DCUM or IRL sneers @ other LACs.

This is all a fever dream.

THANK YOU. So spot on. I couldn't have have said it better myself.