UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

I don't want to get rid of healthcare middle men. I want to make it illegal for hospitals, imaging centers, labs, rehab centers, dialysis, etc. as well as insurance and pharma companies to be for profit. R&D should be federally funded and not used as an excuse for companies to charge exorbitant prices for pills that cost 50 cents to make.

They should be legally prohibited by law from making a profit and executive pay should be capped.

Boom. Problem solved right there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't want to get rid of healthcare middle men. I want to make it illegal for hospitals, imaging centers, labs, rehab centers, dialysis, etc. as well as insurance and pharma companies to be for profit. R&D should be federally funded and not used as an excuse for companies to charge exorbitant prices for pills that cost 50 cents to make.

They should be legally prohibited by law from making a profit and executive pay should be capped.

Boom. Problem solved right there.

What frustrates me most is the lack of transparency and cost discrepancies. Persons A, B and C could get the same procedure at an in network facility, but pay entirely different prices not correlating at all to how much they pay in premiums. I know there are "contracted rates" but these could even be higher than for self pay which is ridiculous. And people are usually limited to a few plans even through work, and within these plans at the mercy of network changes. It is too complicated to navigate and fundamentally entirely unfair. Costs should be uniformized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

[Anonymous]

^ to add, my US taxes (+MD) total tax rate of gross income was 20.45%.

So, I pay a similar tax rate here to the UK, but pay more for healthcare, college, even food, utilities etc.. The only thing cheaper here is gas.

so yea, we have to get paid more here because our col here seems to be higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ to add, my US taxes (+MD) total tax rate of gross income was 20.45%.

So, I pay a similar tax rate here to the UK, but pay more for healthcare, college, even food, utilities etc.. The only thing cheaper here is gas.

so yea, we have to get paid more here because our col here seems to be higher.

College you really do not have to pay a lot for though proportionally to income. Poorest families get a lot of financial aid, and if doing well you can save and pick cheaper options most of DCUM just does not want to consider. These lower cost options are not worse than the average UK university. Healthcare is imo the single most messed up thing about the US system, but I would not like the UK/Canadian or French system either. It's all a bit of pick your poison in terms of speed, access, quality, cost...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't want to get rid of healthcare middle men. I want to make it illegal for hospitals, imaging centers, labs, rehab centers, dialysis, etc. as well as insurance and pharma companies to be for profit. R&D should be federally funded and not used as an excuse for companies to charge exorbitant prices for pills that cost 50 cents to make.

They should be legally prohibited by law from making a profit and executive pay should be capped.

Boom. Problem solved right there.

That would stunt and reverse any new research and break through for treatment because there is no incentive. You would rely on the govt to do that and nothing the govt has created or released has happened in 100 years. Socialist and communist societies eventually collapse it may seem like a good idea at the start but once the lasting effects of capitalism and freedom wear off nothing is left

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

Are they British upper class or aristocrats? I ask because it’s highly uncommon to retire early in European countries. The system isn’t designed for that. The tax system makes it incredibly difficult to build your own wealth and investments. When I explained to a European friend I’d likely stop working at 50 she couldn’t understand the concept and that no, age 50 isn’t when everyone retires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

Are they British upper class or aristocrats? I ask because it’s highly uncommon to retire early in European countries. The system isn’t designed for that. The tax system makes it incredibly difficult to build your own wealth and investments. When I explained to a European friend I’d likely stop working at 50 she couldn’t understand the concept and that no, age 50 isn’t when everyone retires.

NP-Exactly. The age of retirement is mandated by the government in some countries (not sure about UK but France is). And there was huge uproar about rising that age even further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Not that poster and I generally agree with you, but not everyone has a great plan. I have insurance through work and premiums are 1k/family (that is the portion I actuall pay myself every month, not covered by my employer). So I am paying 12k/year in premiums, and of course further costs depending on the year. That 1k is up from 900 last year, and 850 the year before. The last year I had truly affordable insurance on the level you state as average was 2007.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

Are they British upper class or aristocrats? I ask because it’s highly uncommon to retire early in European countries. The system isn’t designed for that. The tax system makes it incredibly difficult to build your own wealth and investments. When I explained to a European friend I’d likely stop working at 50 she couldn’t understand the concept and that no, age 50 isn’t when everyone retires.

NP-Exactly. The age of retirement is mandated by the government in some countries (not sure about UK but France is). And there was huge uproar about rising that age even further.

You do realise the mandate retirement age is to receive a state funded pension? Obviously, you can stop working earlier, but you need to be able to find it yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

Are they British upper class or aristocrats? I ask because it’s highly uncommon to retire early in European countries. The system isn’t designed for that. The tax system makes it incredibly difficult to build your own wealth and investments. When I explained to a European friend I’d likely stop working at 50 she couldn’t understand the concept and that no, age 50 isn’t when everyone retires.

The friends we have are not aristos. Hardly. They worked UMC jobs, like us, and they saved enough to retire early, and have two homes. They can do that because they don't pay for expensive health insurance, and college is cheaper there than here (in part because it's only 3 years).

We currently pay more for our health insurance monthly premium than we do our mortgage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So basically, Europeans are "poorer" on average according to per capita GDP numbers, yet have nearly a decade higher life expectancy than the poorest states in the USA, higher literacy, and much more leisure time.

I think a lot of us would rather be "poor" Europeans by these standards.

I don’t think taxing us more and chilling our innovative ecosystem is going to make us happy. But I think it’s inevitable that we’re going to give it a try. We’ll see how it goes.

you know that the swiss have a higher GDP per capital and much much lower taxes. when we lived in Wisconsin- we paid almost 43-45% of our income in taxes and my sibling paid 47% in Sweden (that made me almost cry since they get so much parental leave, free good childcare and free health insurance and its not sucky like the NHS) . all of our friends who live in the eu make less money than we do but they have single family homes, have cars and some even shop at costco! their standard of living is identical to ours except that they have more vacation time But it is more culturally mandated- you have to take off when the kids have off and its less flexible (5 weeks off for summer, 10 days off at xmas, 2/3 weeks off at spring and fall and ski plus the religious holidays like Easter, Ascension etc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

If you make $65,000, you will each net $50,000 or £38,000 after tax and national insurance (which you have to contribute to until age 66). Of course who knows what the exchange rate will do? You could be worse or better off.