UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't want to get rid of healthcare middle men. I want to make it illegal for hospitals, imaging centers, labs, rehab centers, dialysis, etc. as well as insurance and pharma companies to be for profit. R&D should be federally funded and not used as an excuse for companies to charge exorbitant prices for pills that cost 50 cents to make.

They should be legally prohibited by law from making a profit and executive pay should be capped.

Boom. Problem solved right there.

My mom is a nurse and her hospital administrator makes 5 million. Tell me that’s not insane! I have zero issue with the amounts doctors make. Neurosurgeons deserve it. But an administrator should not make that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't want to get rid of healthcare middle men. I want to make it illegal for hospitals, imaging centers, labs, rehab centers, dialysis, etc. as well as insurance and pharma companies to be for profit. R&D should be federally funded and not used as an excuse for companies to charge exorbitant prices for pills that cost 50 cents to make.

They should be legally prohibited by law from making a profit and executive pay should be capped.

Boom. Problem solved right there.

My mom is a nurse and her hospital administrator makes 5 million. Tell me that’s not insane! I have zero issue with the amounts doctors make. Neurosurgeons deserve it. But an administrator should not make that much.

And their incentives are to maximise revenue, not necessarily to maximise good healthcare for patients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

Are they British upper class or aristocrats? I ask because it’s highly uncommon to retire early in European countries. The system isn’t designed for that. The tax system makes it incredibly difficult to build your own wealth and investments. When I explained to a European friend I’d likely stop working at 50 she couldn’t understand the concept and that no, age 50 isn’t when everyone retires.

NP-Exactly. The age of retirement is mandated by the government in some countries (not sure about UK but France is). And there was huge uproar about rising that age even further.

You do realise the mandate retirement age is to receive a state funded pension? Obviously, you can stop working earlier, but you need to be able to find it yourself.

Of course, but in reality people WANT their pension.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

Available healthcare? What are you talking about? You think there aren’t LONG waitlists in the US?

+1

I'm trying to get in to see a specialist who I've seen for years for a follow up appt and can't get an appointment for FOUR MONTHS.

Be thankful you’re not in Canada. I lived in a border state and the surgeons got a lot of Canadian business from Canadians, crossing the border and paying cash for surgeries because they could get them scheduled in 3 to 4 weeks versus 8 to 18 months in Canada.

Not to mention the wait for MRIs in Canda. Buffalo NY has numerous MRI clinics that cater to Canadians. Very transparent pricing on their websites, too. U.S. has four times the number of MRI machines per capita than Canada has.

My mom needed a new MRI and it got scheduled that week. Probably could have been next day, but it was based on my mom’s schedule. That’s crazy a wait would be for an MRI. I could understand a wait for the neurosurgeon to analyze it.

[Anonymous]

This study found that up 1-1.6 million of the 6.3 million colonoscopies done each year in the US are unnecessary and cost about $3 billion. Imagine how many other procedures are also unnecessary.

https://lowninstitute.org/as-many-as-25-of-screening-colonoscopies-are-unnecessary-study-finds/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This study found that up 1-1.6 million of the 6.3 million colonoscopies done each year in the US are unnecessary and cost about $3 billion. Imagine how many other procedures are also unnecessary.

https://lowninstitute.org/as-many-as-25-of-screening-colonoscopies-are-unnecessary-study-finds/

That article does not state that colonoscopies are unnecessary for the 45 to 75yo group though. And other countries do not use colonoscopy as screening for any group, at all. The standard is fecal test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This study found that up 1-1.6 million of the 6.3 million colonoscopies done each year in the US are unnecessary and cost about $3 billion. Imagine how many other procedures are also unnecessary.

https://lowninstitute.org/as-many-as-25-of-screening-colonoscopies-are-unnecessary-study-finds/

That article does not state that colonoscopies are unnecessary for the 45 to 75yo group though. And other countries do not use colonoscopy as screening for any group, at all. The standard is fecal test.

Yes, my sister in Australia said that once you reach age 45, every two years you receive an at home fecal test in the mail and the results determine whether you then have a colonoscopy. It is a government funded national screening program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

Available healthcare? What are you talking about? You think there aren’t LONG waitlists in the US?

Statistically wait time for surgery in the US is much shorter than Europe, and even more so than Canada.

Anecdotally speaking I had to wait over a year to get a routine pap smear and am still on multiple waiting lists for primary care after moving within the US…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

+1

Americans also have to save aggressively for college from the time our children are babies. That's a non-issue in other developed countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

Available healthcare? What are you talking about? You think there aren’t LONG waitlists in the US?

Statistically wait time for surgery in the US is much shorter than Europe, and even more so than Canada.

Anecdotally speaking I had to wait over a year to get a routine pap smear and am still on multiple waiting lists for primary care after moving within the US…

I know, right? I'd rather just wait in Canada and not have to pay a premium in insurance and copays to wait like I do now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

Available healthcare? What are you talking about? You think there aren’t LONG waitlists in the US?

Statistically wait time for surgery in the US is much shorter than Europe, and even more so than Canada.

Anecdotally speaking I had to wait over a year to get a routine pap smear and am still on multiple waiting lists for primary care after moving within the US…

I know, right? I'd rather just wait in Canada and not have to pay a premium in insurance and copays to wait like I do now.

"Just waiting" can cause a lot of anxiety at best, or painful symptoms you must live with for months until you can finally get the exams you need and surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what socialist welfare states do to the economy. US take note. Don't take the same path. Vote Republican.

LOL

Democrats are going to ruin our economy if they ever gain enough power. Just look at NYC, California. Businesses are leaving, wealthy people are leaving, they keep taxing their citizens further. Eventually they will run out of other peoples money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Norway, Finland and Denmark are also socialist countries with higher standards of living that the US.

This is a very often quoted falsity. Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden are not socialist countries. They are free market economies with many social programs. They also have small very homogeneous populations but that is slowly changing for the worse.

😳😳😳

God forbid the gene pool be polluted, right pp?

In their case, it will certainly be polluted. Immigrants will be a drag on their economies, will fail to assimilate, and slowly change their cultures for the worse. They will ultimately regret letting them into their countries…guaranteed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

+1

Americans also have to save aggressively for college from the time our children are babies. That's a non-issue in other developed countries.

Nope. Just liberals living in select blue states. But of course they think it’s the same everywhere.

Most of the US population (Florida, Texas and California) have access to low cost state universities. The exception is places like Massachusetts, NJ etc and the New Yorkers who wouldn’t dare send their kids to SUNY for $7k.

Also consider what the universities are like that are free and how your child will be tracked from an early age in many countries. In most cases it’s very similar in cost as attending a large community college in the US.