UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EU Kids end HS being fluent in at least three languages. Education counts.

That's completely due to geography and necessity. If you drive 5 hours from France, you have the possibility of driving through 4 different countries speaking 4 different languages. This is not the case in the USA where you can drive 2000 miles and everyone still speaks English (for the most part).

What four countries do you think you're driving through from France? Is that just your way of justifying being monolingual? You don't pick up another language at a gas station on your way, you know.

The part of Switzerland that borders France speaks...guess what, French. The part of Belgium that borders France, speaks....guess what, French. The French in fact are pretty well known for being just like Americans--monolingual.

The farther north you go, the better their language ability. The Dutch, Germans, Danes, Swedes, etc all speak more than one language well. The rest, not so much.

You proved the PP’s point. Because most Europeans countries are small compared to the big three in North America you have a necessity to learn multiple languages in bordering countries. With the exception of Quebec, Canadians speak English. And many Americans that live near the southern border get by on rudimentary Spanish if they didn’t come from a hispanic family to start. There’s no necessity to learn multiple languages in the US due to this reason unless you conduct a lot of international business.

And of course there are a lot of native Canadians that speak their ancestral language in the Yukon, Nunavut, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what socialist welfare states do to the economy. US take note. Don't take the same path. Vote Republican.

Ahh yes because the average American is so well off under the current capitalism system. Those tax cuts for the rich are going to trickle down any day now … and surely it will all get better with unfettered AI.

The current capitalist system certainly did well for me. You must be waiting for govt handouts instead of making it happen for yourself. Typical lib.

I’m a first gen college grad who went on to law school and live an UMC life in a high earning dual income household. I don’t need any “hand outs,” but unlike selfish republicans, I actually care about my fellow Americans who can’t replicate this lifestyle. Not everyone can have high paying white collar jobs (and with AI even fewer people will going forward). It shouldn’t take an advanced degree and six figure income to get cancer treatment or send your kid to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

That’s great for you but do you understand not everyone wants a large home? I moved from a small house in a bustling vibrant part of London to a house which was twice the size in Bethesda. I was happier in London. I found even the inner suburbs of Bethesda quiet, boring and a bit lonely. Not everyone thrives on the same things. It feels like lots of posters here are insisting everyone values the same things when that’s obviously not the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

And yet your large home and safe cars (and the infrastructure that goes with them) are absolutely killing the environment and ruining your kids’ and grandkids’ futures.

But glad you have your priorities straight, Tubby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

? You don't think in the US UMC people work long hours, have long commutes? LOL

Yes, in the UK and most other civilized worlds, they have two choices: private insurance and government funded care. Only we have one choice.

In other countries, one can retire early if they saved enough without having to worry about healthcare. That's not possible here. No one moves to the US to retire, but plenty of Americans retire overseas, including to Europe. They move because the US is unaffordable, especially the healthcare.

Like I said, the US is great for making money, and if you have a lot of money, but if you don't, then it sucks.

Nope. In other countries, well in most European ones, the tax system doesn’t allow for the average person to build wealth. It just doesn’t. Also wages are much lower.

It’s highly unusual for someone to retire early in most European countries.

This comment alone shows how ignorant and clueless you are about the realities or these economies and labor markets.

Please show your work! It’s been a long week, I need a good laugh.

That aside, the POINT of PP’s post was that in many European countries, one does not need to “build wealth” in order to retire. Duh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what socialist welfare states do to the economy. US take note. Don't take the same path. Vote Republican.

Ahh yes because the average American is so well off under the current capitalism system. Those tax cuts for the rich are going to trickle down any day now … and surely it will all get better with unfettered AI.

The current capitalist system certainly did well for me. You must be waiting for govt handouts instead of making it happen for yourself. Typical lib.

I’m a first gen college grad who went on to law school and live an UMC life in a high earning dual income household. I don’t need any “hand outs,” but unlike selfish republicans, I actually care about my fellow Americans who can’t replicate this lifestyle. Not everyone can have high paying white collar jobs (and with AI even fewer people will going forward). It shouldn’t take an advanced degree and six figure income to get cancer treatment or send your kid to college.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You have to look at the wealth gap as well. The distribution of wealth matters.

This is correct. I am not going to look up the stats for EU member states, Canada has a similar issue compared to the U.S.

The top 20% of Americans has an higher average income than the top 20% of Canadians. But the bottom 80% of Canadians has a higher average income than the bottom 80% of Americans. Plus the govt services and work culture are far more generous to Canadian workers than American workers. I think you will find EU countries often have a similar situation.

On the whole it is much hard being in the bottom 80% of Americans than the bottom 80% of the countries shown in the video.

I'm familiar enough with these creative "stats." Whoever came up with this one is playing a game by jumping one demographic that is definitely poor in the US, the poor, with fewer benefits etc compared to most western countries, and excluding the rich to make it seem like the middle class is richer in Canada. It's not quite the truthful picture. Median salary (meaning 50% make more, 50% make less) in the US is $64,000. In Canada it is $46,000. This gives you a more accurate picture.

As for Euros, outside places like Switzerland, most people do have lower incomes compared to American peers. Material wealth is higher in the US. Quality of life is subjective. I love Europe, but most people do live modest lives in small apartments. It's not all historic urban centers but plenty of grimy suburbs and tower blocks.

As the middle class in America is stretched more and more Europe looks better and better. If education, housing, and healthcare are unaffordable to the median income person making $64k, that “extra” 18k in income matters less and less, doesn’t it? Would you rather make 46k with health insurance or 64k without it?

64k without. I'd rather live a shorter life spending my money the way I want to. Health insurance will let me live longer, but why would I want to?

This reminds of the lyrics of "All This Time" by Sting:

Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
Better to be poor than be a fat man in the eye of the needle
As these words were spoken I swear I hear the old man laughing
What good is a used up world and how could it be worth having?

Um, well, if you want to have greater wealth but have a lower life expectancy than in Europe, you're in the right country.

That’s because American eat like crap

And we have a government that does a crap job of regulating food producers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You have to look at the wealth gap as well. The distribution of wealth matters.

This is correct. I am not going to look up the stats for EU member states, Canada has a similar issue compared to the U.S.

The top 20% of Americans has an higher average income than the top 20% of Canadians. But the bottom 80% of Canadians has a higher average income than the bottom 80% of Americans. Plus the govt services and work culture are far more generous to Canadian workers than American workers. I think you will find EU countries often have a similar situation.

On the whole it is much hard being in the bottom 80% of Americans than the bottom 80% of the countries shown in the video.

I'm familiar enough with these creative "stats." Whoever came up with this one is playing a game by jumping one demographic that is definitely poor in the US, the poor, with fewer benefits etc compared to most western countries, and excluding the rich to make it seem like the middle class is richer in Canada. It's not quite the truthful picture. Median salary (meaning 50% make more, 50% make less) in the US is $64,000. In Canada it is $46,000. This gives you a more accurate picture.

As for Euros, outside places like Switzerland, most people do have lower incomes compared to American peers. Material wealth is higher in the US. Quality of life is subjective. I love Europe, but most people do live modest lives in small apartments. It's not all historic urban centers but plenty of grimy suburbs and tower blocks.

As the middle class in America is stretched more and more Europe looks better and better. If education, housing, and healthcare are unaffordable to the median income person making $64k, that “extra” 18k in income matters less and less, doesn’t it? Would you rather make 46k with health insurance or 64k without it?

64k without. I'd rather live a shorter life spending my money the way I want to. Health insurance will let me live longer, but why would I want to?

This reminds of the lyrics of "All This Time" by Sting:

Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
Better to be poor than be a fat man in the eye of the needle
As these words were spoken I swear I hear the old man laughing
What good is a used up world and how could it be worth having?

Um, well, if you want to have greater wealth but have a lower life expectancy than in Europe, you're in the right country.

That’s because American eat like crap

And we have a government that does a crap job of regulating food producers.

It's the governments fault that most Americans eat massive portions of crappy food? I shop at Walmart and seem to do just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what socialist welfare states do to the economy. US take note. Don't take the same path. Vote Republican.

Ahh yes because the average American is so well off under the current capitalism system. Those tax cuts for the rich are going to trickle down any day now … and surely it will all get better with unfettered AI.

The current capitalist system certainly did well for me. You must be waiting for govt handouts instead of making it happen for yourself. Typical lib.

I’m a first gen college grad who went on to law school and live an UMC life in a high earning dual income household. I don’t need any “hand outs,” but unlike selfish republicans, I actually care about my fellow Americans who can’t replicate this lifestyle. Not everyone can have high paying white collar jobs (and with AI even fewer people will going forward). It shouldn’t take an advanced degree and six figure income to get cancer treatment or send your kid to college.

Top 1% of US taxpayers earn 22% of all income and pay 46% of all income tax. Seems like they're already paying their fair share, if not more. You can always donate to your favorite causes. Even if it'll just go to fat salaries of non profit administrators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

That’s great for you but do you understand not everyone wants a large home? I moved from a small house in a bustling vibrant part of London to a house which was twice the size in Bethesda. I was happier in London. I found even the inner suburbs of Bethesda quiet, boring and a bit lonely. Not everyone thrives on the same things. It feels like lots of posters here are insisting everyone values the same things when that’s obviously not the case.

London has huge sprawling suburbs. Living in Bethesda is like living in Surrey or Hertfordshire and commuting in. Most of Britain's UMC live this suburban life, just with smaller houses and longer commutes. You can always move into DC proper if you want more bustling life around you. No one stopping you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

That’s great for you but do you understand not everyone wants a large home? I moved from a small house in a bustling vibrant part of London to a house which was twice the size in Bethesda. I was happier in London. I found even the inner suburbs of Bethesda quiet, boring and a bit lonely. Not everyone thrives on the same things. It feels like lots of posters here are insisting everyone values the same things when that’s obviously not the case.

Given housing is priced per square foot, it’s simply not true that most people value having less space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

And yet your large home and safe cars (and the infrastructure that goes with them) are absolutely killing the environment and ruining your kids’ and grandkids’ futures.

But glad you have your priorities straight, Tubby.

I’m sure you hate large homes and SUVs but still travel internationally and eat fruits and vegetables flown here from across the globe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

? The amount we pay in premiums + deductible is about $20K for a family of 3 in the US.

I guess we need to make more to pay for the outrageous healthcare and college costs.

Our UMC friends in the UK don't have to worry about paying for health care costs or college that much. Sure, we may have more than them, but we worry more about paying for medical care. They are able to retire early and not worry about health insurance. We are forced to work longer just for the health insurance.

We're seriously thinking of living there for a few years before I qualify for medicare (spouse is a dual citizen). ACA premiums for a 60 yr old hdp is about $1000/month.

We did a cost comparison with our friends in the UK, and we pay a lot more than they do overall.

Our UK tax bracket would be 20%. There is no joint filing in the UK.

So, if each of us have an income of $65k (ish), we each get taxed 20% (13K). That tax amount (13k) ends up being lower than the expected healthcare costs of a 60 yr old person in the US.

So, yes, the UK is cheaper when you factor in how expensive healthcare is in the US.

I work for a f500 and do not pay anywhere close to 20k a year for healthcare. The numbers you're quoting is more for self employed people buying their own insurance. I did Google this and it seems like the average family of 4 pays between 6-7k and year with the employer covering the rest.

The average UK student graduates from university with a higher debt than the average American graduate. Google says it's 53,000 pounds, or $71k. The average college debt in the US is $43k. And starting salaries for college grads in the US is a lot higher.

So be careful when cherry picking your examples.

Americans have to work until 65 so they don't have to pay $20K/year on healthcare.

Also, not all employers in the US pay for health insurance. As a matter of fact, about 15% to 20% of the population had zero health insurance before ACA. These were not all self employed people. And now, of course, thanks to Rs, many have lost their ACA insurance.

Americans have less college debt in part because we the taxpayers bail them out, and some of the colleges here are rich. But, it's not about debt. It's about how much we are paying for college here compared to the UK.

I recall a French person on this forum saying that they like how they can make more money here, and their private insurance here is great, but if they lost their job due to illness they'd probably move back to France. The majority of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical reasons. That's unheard of in Europe.

America is a great place to make money, not have a quality of life. We have less leave, vacation, more pesticides in our food, more big corp money involved in our everyday of life - food, politics, etc.. It's insidious.

Glass is half full or half empty, eh?

Average age of retirement in UK is 65, same with Germany. So seems like a moot point.

I lived in the UK for years and in an UMC world. You're spinning a scenario that isn't typical. What I saw was people working long hours, with long commutes, with pleasant but not extravagant lives, and constant money worries especially affording good housing and school fees for children. Most also had some kind of private insurance access.

Contrary to what another poster idealized on here, administrators or national health care systems aren't focused on the best possible care but stretching out a reasonable standard of care among a bigger and bigger population (FYI health care expenditures are also soaring in UK, funding the NHS and where the money actually goes is a perennial political football topic, complaints about a bloated bureaucracy, controlling costs and unaccountability are widespread).

I am sure we can all agree Denmark and similar countries are winners, but they are also small, highly homogenous, wealthy, in other words, they have it easier.

Add tiny, badly insulated homes. Although I get many people on here dream of cramming a family of four into a small house in Europe and driving an overpriced hatchback.

The ability to own a large, comfortable home and drive large, comfortable cars is something many liberals detest, but unfortunately really does make a huge difference in your QOL.

The tiny house/flat and daily grocery runs are romanticized on the internet.

Instead I see my friends barely scraping by to pay for a very small and unimpressive home and going to BS jobs that pay 50% the salary they would here. They just shop frequently because they don’t have room in their tiny house and fridge. Then taking multiple kids on public transport in the rain. Yes living the dream. Thank god they aren’t living in a McMansion in Dallas.

This is actually an excellent lifestyle if you’re not an obese, lazy, wasteful $hit. Sorry it wouldn’t work for you.

Well I’m none of those things and try to bike whenever possible. But I absolutely love my large, nice home and new, safe cars. I try to look for the positive in things and as an American I greatly appreciate having so much space, land and the ability to live in such a nice home.

That’s great for you but do you understand not everyone wants a large home? I moved from a small house in a bustling vibrant part of London to a house which was twice the size in Bethesda. I was happier in London. I found even the inner suburbs of Bethesda quiet, boring and a bit lonely. Not everyone thrives on the same things. It feels like lots of posters here are insisting everyone values the same things when that’s obviously not the case.

This is really the essence, right here.