Bill Maher explains the Middle East to Gen Z: Can anyone really dispute the facts?

[Anonymous]

Jeff, I am impressed with your knowledge of the Middle East. I personally find it all so confusing and can’t keep it straight.
How do you know so much about the history there? I appreciate how you patiently try to educate the rest of us ignorant folk

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

The bolded is not true. There was never an election for the government of Gaza. The Israelis also put their bases in civilian areas. I guess you won't complain if Israeli civilians are harmed during attacks on those installations.

Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006.

Right, legislative elections for the entire Palestinian territories. Not Gaza and not the presidency. It is the executive branch (president) that governs, not the legislature. As I said, there was never an election for the government of Gaza.

Well then, I guess every Palestinian should scheme, plot and plan to kill Hamas and anyone tied to the Gaza government, doncha think?

You are really repellant. My tastier comments to you were deleted, because you’re also an absolute baby, but that’s obvious.

You are holding people under bombardment, with limited access to necessities, to fight a multi-pronged war against the IDF and against the armed fanatics in their own population, with limited material resources, in a bracketed, contained strip of land with minimal escape routes. To prove to you sitting on your ample ass in UMC comfort that they are good enough to be regarded as human. It’s hilarious. You’re no one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I see when reading some of you is that you simply can't accept that you were brought up on MSM framing where you never questioned what you were shown. You're so brainwashed into believing nothing happened/happens before there's retaliation against Israel and then every camera light goes on. You tell yourself that because the media isn't showing you the people Israel killed/beat/raped/kidnapped that day, that week, that month, that year and doesn't give them a fleshed out "human interest" narrative the way they do with Israelis, you then just brush away their pain and their humanity, and then conclude that I am tantamount to the literal calls for another Holocaust against Jews as you ignore the *average* Israeli calling for the extermination of Palestinians. I have someone calling me a "demon." This is what US media and the govt overrun with people like Stuart Seldowitz literally in the SD in the Office on Isr-Pal, has wrought. Listen to Matt Miller, he's no different. It's disgraceful how the US is prepared to destroy itself for THIS. Their hypocrisy on full-display for the world to see.

The younger gen. aren't the ones who fell for the Iraq war lies propped up by your precious "respectable" media as you smirk at the thought of them getting their news from social media. They aren't the ones who sat there listening to Neocons with the actual "bloodlust" lie to you and who are now to this day, treated as elder statesmen on that "credible" traditional media you love so much.

My hope is with the younger generation, because unlike you older people, they refuse to turn a blind eye to what Israel has done every single day when the MSM chose to ignore it. They refuse your simplistic belief that "Oct 7" is when this started or you get to ignore what led to it. When you just brush away the president of the US lied to you on day one and claimed he "saw videos of beheaded babies" and the media --rather than investigate the claims-- splash it on your screens all day and guests poisoning the minds of viewers for days/weeks and then are tepid with the retractions, you expect them to go along with how you consume information? They aren't the ones sitting there watching the ADL lie and make it about antisemitism and use Judaism as their cudgel to defend the barbarism of Israel. They aren't the ones who actively attack me for existing and then claim I want Jews dead based on simply telling you how everything actually happened and who brought terrorism and quoting the direct words of Israelis or Zionists, not simply the "far-right." Israelis society is destroying itself and you coddling their depravity, will only hasten their demise. Keep telling yourself it's just some fringe minority in Israel while you then compare me to them. Should really work out well being that myopic in how you think and you read what someone says.

And to the ridiculous comment "I don't have a dog in this fight" that I see blissfully ignorant Americans constantly use but always seem to still believe the lies about Israel always being the victim, I'll say what I did in another post on another thread: Your tax money, your media and your govt's blind fealty from Congress to vetoes at the UN to laws punishing anyone who speaks out, is why you do have a dog in this fight: You created Cujo.

Done with this topic, but I thank Jeff for providing the forum.

You’re not “done with this topic.” Otc, you won’t shut up about it and insist that you - a random poster - know more about the situation than Middle East experts. You do not.

You're right, I'm not done. One more just for you: I'm Palestinian. That you --the actual random poster-- tell me I don't know what I know *first hand* how Israel operates or the lies I know are lies, is *chefskiss*

You'll forgive me if I don't go along with "Middle East experts" like Bill Maher or I'm sure all the ones you're thinking of who happen to be western Zionists. Nothing funnier than being lectured by people who think it's perfectly normal watching roundtables with no actual Middle Eastern people. Nicolle Wallace discussing the Middle East with two "Mideast experts" like: Johnathan Greenblatt and Donny Deutsche.

List your experts who aren't part of "thinktanks" that are clearly pro-Israel. I doubt any are actually Arab and NOT on the payroll. Forget it, because I don;t even care what you think.

Now I am done. Won't even read your reply.

DP

Please reconsider. Voices like yours will be part of the healing process, overcoming the distortions and manipulations that are central to the Zionist movement’s stranglehold of U.S. policy in the region.

The US rightly recognizes that a democratic country that is pro US and also upholds many western values including but not limited to freedom of religion, rights for women, rights for LGTBQ+, rights for racial minorities, is aligned with US interests vs Iran-backed regimes and terrorists groups that dominate the region. That’s not the “Zionists” (Jew haters love wielding that word but it betrays your intent); that is good US foreign policy.

Now sure, you can say Netanyahu isn’t a good guy, agree. But just like I’m not giving up on the US because of Trump and hope our allies won’t either, not going to abandon Israel for what is essentially Iran’s Islamist regime.

Obviously the U.S. has more than two policy choices in the Middle East, The suggestion that we either have to give full 100% support to Israel or we must align with Iran is ridiculous. At a minimum, the U.S. should follow U.S. law which prohibits supplying weapons to countries that are preventing humanitarian aid to reach victims. Israel is clearly doing that in northern Gaza. As such, the U.S. should follow our own law and immediately halt all weapons deliveries.

Second, the U.S., as a member of the United Nations and a Security Council member, has a responsibility to ensure the safety of of U.N. peacekeeping forces. Israel has repeatedly attacked UNIFIL forces in southern Lebanon, wounding several soldiers. Today Israeli forces invaded a UNIFIL base. The U.S. should stop all support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon until Israel halts its aggression toward the peacekeeping forces.

Third, today Secretary of Defense Austin authorized the deployment of a THAAD missile defense system and a crew of U.S. personnel to man it to Israel. This is the deployment of U.S. forces into a war zone where there is a good chance they will be involved in conflict. This should not be done without Congressional authorization and should not be done at all until Israel adheres to U.S. demands regarding a ceasefire in Gaza, the resumption of humanitarian aid, a ceasefire in Lebanon, and an end to the seize of northern Gaza.

The U.S. relationship with Israel had been one-sided for far too long. It is time for the U.S. to follow its own laws and pursue its own interests.

Thank god there are voices better than mine to swat deceptive posts like the PP’s drivel into the dustbin of history. Appreciate this so much, the unraveling of years of fake news justification for America’s support of Israel.

There’s nothing in my post that was fake news - and please be explicit if you’re going to say that. I may have a differing perspective but that doesn’t make the facts of the situation “fake”.

As to Jeff’s post, yes, agree that the US should condition military aid. Humanitarian aid is impacted by Hamas’ continued attacks in Israel.
And Israel is entering into Lebanon to address Hezbollah that is embedded and attacking from that area. This is a two-sided war between Israel and the defacto regime (Iranian proxy), Hezbollah. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel since October 8. Any other nation in the world would seek to eradicate the threat of rockets continually fired into its space. Israel is not different in this regard.

Same with Gaza. You have a very active Hamas presence intent on continuing conflict. A ceasefire takes two.

Dishonesty: “democratic”; using “Western values” as a term of virtue; claiming that Israel, as embodied by its leadership, wants a ceasefire; arguing that events prior to
10/6 are irrelevant; and on and on.

Your posts are embarrassingly bereft of facts. It’s just Israeli propaganda.

Have you been to Israel? Doesn’t sound like it.

If you have gone to Israel you’d know that things like freedom of religion, freedom for women, the rights of LGBTQ+ people, and the rights of minorities are far more aligned with what we in western democracies hold dear than any of Israel’s neighbors. Is it perfect? No, Israel is not perfect. But it is far more democratic than any other country in the region and, yes, aligns with principles of many western democracies. It’s also pro US, unlike most of the region (and yes, that’s going back decades).

Not sure what you’re referencing about 10/6 but don’t think you do either.

The hard part to square with my democratic western values is that Israel is killing thousands, maiming thousands more, making orphans and widows of many, displacing millions, starving many. Yes, I get that Israel feels threatened bit they have gone way to far. Also, there is no way this is making their citizens safer. Just today there was a drone attack (on a military base fyi not a hospital or a school) in Israel. It’s enough. We have to stop sending weapons (although also just today went sent more plus soldiers).

[Anonymous]

Some pro-Israel people claim that people who care about the Palestinian people are treating them "like children" and "they are not children" as though this is all their fault. Ironically, a very large percentage of Palestinians are literally children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

What a gross response as I listen to Maher and people like you justify the massacre of my people and reducing us to one dimensional caricatures who just want to kill Jews.

What peace plans? Be specific in the details, since you people never are. You are a LIGHT-WEIGHT. I can write your responses for you at this point because it's all the same garbage with no context or details because that would then show you have no valid argument. The only peace deal that ever came close to being fair was one that ended the moment a bullet hit Rabin. WHO KILLED HIM?

Don't you dare speak down to me when you are the ones trying to erase my people and nullify our existence and claim we never existed at all. What other psychos get to do that to a group of people to justify murdering them TODAY? Putin isn't even as insidious as Netayanhu and that disgusting Knesset.

75 f***ing years of people like you watching tax money going towards killing my people and stealing everything from us. You want young people who watch countless videos of YEARS of IDF and settlers beating the sh*t out of Palestinians, to go along with you and you want to just sit there and pretend we are the violent ones?

You're clearly of a certain age where you think your same, tire responses work. You still think everyone should continue to believe the lies about "antisemitism' and just want to kill Jews and all of the other despicable racist tropes you get away with to justify an occupation.

My people paid for what EUROPE did. PERIOD. Until you accept that fact, don't ever talk about who started what and who brought violence to Palestine.

You've chosen to lie to yourself about history. You and Bill Maher --that worthless, disgusting bigot too cowardly to debate any of us-- want the younger generation to believe the lies you tell them regarding the history of how that country was even created. They refuse to swallow your revisionist tripe that has been pushed by traditional media which no longer has any credibility.

Have you ever heard of 'turn the other cheek'? Or do you only know 'an eye for an eye'? For your children's sake, give up your bloodlust.

NP. Go preach that to the Israelis murdering everything that moves in the Middle East as we speak. 50,000+ dead and counting over their 1,200. They’re not just asking for an eye; they’re taking both eyes and all the organs.

That's an excellent point. This is a battle between far right extremists. Once it ends I hope the same patterns aren't repeated 10 years from now. Only the peacemakers on both sides can save them.

Hezbollah literally stopped firing because of peacekeepers in the vicinity while Israel tried to use them as human shields. Here's your "peacemaker". A former WH adviser no less. Another rabid Zionist "peacemaker" referring to peacekeepers:

"I hope every one of those useless POS Irishmen are blasted to bits," Brodsky said on social media platform X on Saturday, October 5.
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/matthew-brodsky-irish

That’s disturbing and such an ugly thing to say. Imagine if someone said “I hope every one of those POS Americans coming in to help are blasted to bits”. Iranian leaders are probably saying it which makes Brodsky no better than extremist dictators.

Ireland is a peaceful country (besides their constant fighting England’s colonialism) and they are focused on using their tiny army for peacekeeping around the world.

Israel has requested that the UNIFIL peacekeepers withdraw from southern Lebanon, but the Irish PM rejected that.
He said: “We cannot have a situation where aggression can force a peacekeeping mission to leave." Good for Ireland.

[Anonymous]

Who cares about Gen Z, they rarely come out of their parent’s basements.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

The bolded is not true. There was never an election for the government of Gaza. The Israelis also put their bases in civilian areas. I guess you won't complain if Israeli civilians are harmed during attacks on those installations.

Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006.

Right, legislative elections for the entire Palestinian territories. Not Gaza and not the presidency. It is the executive branch (president) that governs, not the legislature. As I said, there was never an election for the government of Gaza.

Well then, I guess every Palestinian should scheme, plot and plan to kill Hamas and anyone tied to the Gaza government, doncha think?

Right now Palestinians are doing all they can to escape Israel's attempt to exterminate them. You know, the Israelis elected Netanyahu. There is no dispute about that. Should every single Israeli be held responsible for Netanyahu?

If Israel wanted to exterminate Palestinians, they would all be dead and gone now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

The bolded is not true. There was never an election for the government of Gaza. The Israelis also put their bases in civilian areas. I guess you won't complain if Israeli civilians are harmed during attacks on those installations.

Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006.

Right, legislative elections for the entire Palestinian territories. Not Gaza and not the presidency. It is the executive branch (president) that governs, not the legislature. As I said, there was never an election for the government of Gaza.

Well then, I guess every Palestinian should scheme, plot and plan to kill Hamas and anyone tied to the Gaza government, doncha think?

Right now Palestinians are doing all they can to escape Israel's attempt to exterminate them. You know, the Israelis elected Netanyahu. There is no dispute about that. Should every single Israeli be held responsible for Netanyahu?

If Israel wanted to exterminate Palestinians, they would all be dead and gone now.

Really?

That’s your defense? If we wanted to, we could. That?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

The bolded is not true. There was never an election for the government of Gaza. The Israelis also put their bases in civilian areas. I guess you won't complain if Israeli civilians are harmed during attacks on those installations.

Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006.

Right, legislative elections for the entire Palestinian territories. Not Gaza and not the presidency. It is the executive branch (president) that governs, not the legislature. As I said, there was never an election for the government of Gaza.

Well then, I guess every Palestinian should scheme, plot and plan to kill Hamas and anyone tied to the Gaza government, doncha think?

Right now Palestinians are doing all they can to escape Israel's attempt to exterminate them. You know, the Israelis elected Netanyahu. There is no dispute about that. Should every single Israeli be held responsible for Netanyahu?

If Israel wanted to exterminate Palestinians, they would all be dead and gone now.

Really?

That’s your defense? If we wanted to, we could. That?

Yes.

If Hamas could do so, they would murder every single Israeli.

The only reason they haven’t done so is because they can’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I see when reading some of you is that you simply can't accept that you were brought up on MSM framing where you never questioned what you were shown. You're so brainwashed into believing nothing happened/happens before there's retaliation against Israel and then every camera light goes on. You tell yourself that because the media isn't showing you the people Israel killed/beat/raped/kidnapped that day, that week, that month, that year and doesn't give them a fleshed out "human interest" narrative the way they do with Israelis, you then just brush away their pain and their humanity, and then conclude that I am tantamount to the literal calls for another Holocaust against Jews as you ignore the *average* Israeli calling for the extermination of Palestinians. I have someone calling me a "demon." This is what US media and the govt overrun with people like Stuart Seldowitz literally in the SD in the Office on Isr-Pal, has wrought. Listen to Matt Miller, he's no different. It's disgraceful how the US is prepared to destroy itself for THIS. Their hypocrisy on full-display for the world to see.

The younger gen. aren't the ones who fell for the Iraq war lies propped up by your precious "respectable" media as you smirk at the thought of them getting their news from social media. They aren't the ones who sat there listening to Neocons with the actual "bloodlust" lie to you and who are now to this day, treated as elder statesmen on that "credible" traditional media you love so much.

My hope is with the younger generation, because unlike you older people, they refuse to turn a blind eye to what Israel has done every single day when the MSM chose to ignore it. They refuse your simplistic belief that "Oct 7" is when this started or you get to ignore what led to it. When you just brush away the president of the US lied to you on day one and claimed he "saw videos of beheaded babies" and the media --rather than investigate the claims-- splash it on your screens all day and guests poisoning the minds of viewers for days/weeks and then are tepid with the retractions, you expect them to go along with how you consume information? They aren't the ones sitting there watching the ADL lie and make it about antisemitism and use Judaism as their cudgel to defend the barbarism of Israel. They aren't the ones who actively attack me for existing and then claim I want Jews dead based on simply telling you how everything actually happened and who brought terrorism and quoting the direct words of Israelis or Zionists, not simply the "far-right." Israelis society is destroying itself and you coddling their depravity, will only hasten their demise. Keep telling yourself it's just some fringe minority in Israel while you then compare me to them. Should really work out well being that myopic in how you think and you read what someone says.

And to the ridiculous comment "I don't have a dog in this fight" that I see blissfully ignorant Americans constantly use but always seem to still believe the lies about Israel always being the victim, I'll say what I did in another post on another thread: Your tax money, your media and your govt's blind fealty from Congress to vetoes at the UN to laws punishing anyone who speaks out, is why you do have a dog in this fight: You created Cujo.

Done with this topic, but I thank Jeff for providing the forum.

You’re not “done with this topic.” Otc, you won’t shut up about it and insist that you - a random poster - know more about the situation than Middle East experts. You do not.

You're right, I'm not done. One more just for you: I'm Palestinian. That you --the actual random poster-- tell me I don't know what I know *first hand* how Israel operates or the lies I know are lies, is *chefskiss*

You'll forgive me if I don't go along with "Middle East experts" like Bill Maher or I'm sure all the ones you're thinking of who happen to be western Zionists. Nothing funnier than being lectured by people who think it's perfectly normal watching roundtables with no actual Middle Eastern people. Nicolle Wallace discussing the Middle East with two "Mideast experts" like: Johnathan Greenblatt and Donny Deutsche.

List your experts who aren't part of "thinktanks" that are clearly pro-Israel. I doubt any are actually Arab and NOT on the payroll. Forget it, because I don;t even care what you think.

Now I am done. Won't even read your reply.

DP

Please reconsider. Voices like yours will be part of the healing process, overcoming the distortions and manipulations that are central to the Zionist movement’s stranglehold of U.S. policy in the region.

The US rightly recognizes that a democratic country that is pro US and also upholds many western values including but not limited to freedom of religion, rights for women, rights for LGTBQ+, rights for racial minorities, is aligned with US interests vs Iran-backed regimes and terrorists groups that dominate the region. That’s not the “Zionists” (Jew haters love wielding that word but it betrays your intent); that is good US foreign policy.

Now sure, you can say Netanyahu isn’t a good guy, agree. But just like I’m not giving up on the US because of Trump and hope our allies won’t either, not going to abandon Israel for what is essentially Iran’s Islamist regime.

Obviously the U.S. has more than two policy choices in the Middle East, The suggestion that we either have to give full 100% support to Israel or we must align with Iran is ridiculous. At a minimum, the U.S. should follow U.S. law which prohibits supplying weapons to countries that are preventing humanitarian aid to reach victims. Israel is clearly doing that in northern Gaza. As such, the U.S. should follow our own law and immediately halt all weapons deliveries.

Second, the U.S., as a member of the United Nations and a Security Council member, has a responsibility to ensure the safety of of U.N. peacekeeping forces. Israel has repeatedly attacked UNIFIL forces in southern Lebanon, wounding several soldiers. Today Israeli forces invaded a UNIFIL base. The U.S. should stop all support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon until Israel halts its aggression toward the peacekeeping forces.

Third, today Secretary of Defense Austin authorized the deployment of a THAAD missile defense system and a crew of U.S. personnel to man it to Israel. This is the deployment of U.S. forces into a war zone where there is a good chance they will be involved in conflict. This should not be done without Congressional authorization and should not be done at all until Israel adheres to U.S. demands regarding a ceasefire in Gaza, the resumption of humanitarian aid, a ceasefire in Lebanon, and an end to the seize of northern Gaza.

The U.S. relationship with Israel had been one-sided for far too long. It is time for the U.S. to follow its own laws and pursue its own interests.

Thank god there are voices better than mine to swat deceptive posts like the PP’s drivel into the dustbin of history. Appreciate this so much, the unraveling of years of fake news justification for America’s support of Israel.

There’s nothing in my post that was fake news - and please be explicit if you’re going to say that. I may have a differing perspective but that doesn’t make the facts of the situation “fake”.

As to Jeff’s post, yes, agree that the US should condition military aid. Humanitarian aid is impacted by Hamas’ continued attacks in Israel.
And Israel is entering into Lebanon to address Hezbollah that is embedded and attacking from that area. This is a two-sided war between Israel and the defacto regime (Iranian proxy), Hezbollah. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel since October 8. Any other nation in the world would seek to eradicate the threat of rockets continually fired into its space. Israel is not different in this regard.

Same with Gaza. You have a very active Hamas presence intent on continuing conflict. A ceasefire takes two.

Dishonesty: “democratic”; using “Western values” as a term of virtue; claiming that Israel, as embodied by its leadership, wants a ceasefire; arguing that events prior to
10/6 are irrelevant; and on and on.

Your posts are embarrassingly bereft of facts. It’s just Israeli propaganda.

Have you been to Israel? Doesn’t sound like it.

If you have gone to Israel you’d know that things like freedom of religion, freedom for women, the rights of LGBTQ+ people, and the rights of minorities are far more aligned with what we in western democracies hold dear than any of Israel’s neighbors. Is it perfect? No, Israel is not perfect. But it is far more democratic than any other country in the region and, yes, aligns with principles of many western democracies. It’s also pro US, unlike most of the region (and yes, that’s going back decades).

Not sure what you’re referencing about 10/6 but don’t think you do either.

The hard part to square with my democratic western values is that Israel is killing thousands, maiming thousands more, making orphans and widows of many, displacing millions, starving many. Yes, I get that Israel feels threatened bit they have gone way to far. Also, there is no way this is making their citizens safer. Just today there was a drone attack (on a military base fyi not a hospital or a school) in Israel. It’s enough. We have to stop sending weapons (although also just today went sent more plus soldiers).

Israel is doing what we'd do. We killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we committed plenty of war crimes along the way. We're still holding people in Guantanamo Bay. Doesn't make it okay, but we'd do it again in a heartbeat if another 9/11 happened on our shores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

The bolded is not true. There was never an election for the government of Gaza. The Israelis also put their bases in civilian areas. I guess you won't complain if Israeli civilians are harmed during attacks on those installations.

Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006.

Right, legislative elections for the entire Palestinian territories. Not Gaza and not the presidency. It is the executive branch (president) that governs, not the legislature. As I said, there was never an election for the government of Gaza.

Well then, I guess every Palestinian should scheme, plot and plan to kill Hamas and anyone tied to the Gaza government, doncha think?

Right now Palestinians are doing all they can to escape Israel's attempt to exterminate them. You know, the Israelis elected Netanyahu. There is no dispute about that. Should every single Israeli be held responsible for Netanyahu?

If Israel wanted to exterminate Palestinians, they would all be dead and gone now.

Hmm. So they just want the Palestinians suffering without homes, hungry, mourning the loss of loved ones, and trying to care for loved ones missing limbs. So much better!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I see when reading some of you is that you simply can't accept that you were brought up on MSM framing where you never questioned what you were shown. You're so brainwashed into believing nothing happened/happens before there's retaliation against Israel and then every camera light goes on. You tell yourself that because the media isn't showing you the people Israel killed/beat/raped/kidnapped that day, that week, that month, that year and doesn't give them a fleshed out "human interest" narrative the way they do with Israelis, you then just brush away their pain and their humanity, and then conclude that I am tantamount to the literal calls for another Holocaust against Jews as you ignore the *average* Israeli calling for the extermination of Palestinians. I have someone calling me a "demon." This is what US media and the govt overrun with people like Stuart Seldowitz literally in the SD in the Office on Isr-Pal, has wrought. Listen to Matt Miller, he's no different. It's disgraceful how the US is prepared to destroy itself for THIS. Their hypocrisy on full-display for the world to see.

The younger gen. aren't the ones who fell for the Iraq war lies propped up by your precious "respectable" media as you smirk at the thought of them getting their news from social media. They aren't the ones who sat there listening to Neocons with the actual "bloodlust" lie to you and who are now to this day, treated as elder statesmen on that "credible" traditional media you love so much.

My hope is with the younger generation, because unlike you older people, they refuse to turn a blind eye to what Israel has done every single day when the MSM chose to ignore it. They refuse your simplistic belief that "Oct 7" is when this started or you get to ignore what led to it. When you just brush away the president of the US lied to you on day one and claimed he "saw videos of beheaded babies" and the media --rather than investigate the claims-- splash it on your screens all day and guests poisoning the minds of viewers for days/weeks and then are tepid with the retractions, you expect them to go along with how you consume information? They aren't the ones sitting there watching the ADL lie and make it about antisemitism and use Judaism as their cudgel to defend the barbarism of Israel. They aren't the ones who actively attack me for existing and then claim I want Jews dead based on simply telling you how everything actually happened and who brought terrorism and quoting the direct words of Israelis or Zionists, not simply the "far-right." Israelis society is destroying itself and you coddling their depravity, will only hasten their demise. Keep telling yourself it's just some fringe minority in Israel while you then compare me to them. Should really work out well being that myopic in how you think and you read what someone says.

And to the ridiculous comment "I don't have a dog in this fight" that I see blissfully ignorant Americans constantly use but always seem to still believe the lies about Israel always being the victim, I'll say what I did in another post on another thread: Your tax money, your media and your govt's blind fealty from Congress to vetoes at the UN to laws punishing anyone who speaks out, is why you do have a dog in this fight: You created Cujo.

Done with this topic, but I thank Jeff for providing the forum.

You’re not “done with this topic.” Otc, you won’t shut up about it and insist that you - a random poster - know more about the situation than Middle East experts. You do not.

You're right, I'm not done. One more just for you: I'm Palestinian. That you --the actual random poster-- tell me I don't know what I know *first hand* how Israel operates or the lies I know are lies, is *chefskiss*

You'll forgive me if I don't go along with "Middle East experts" like Bill Maher or I'm sure all the ones you're thinking of who happen to be western Zionists. Nothing funnier than being lectured by people who think it's perfectly normal watching roundtables with no actual Middle Eastern people. Nicolle Wallace discussing the Middle East with two "Mideast experts" like: Johnathan Greenblatt and Donny Deutsche.

List your experts who aren't part of "thinktanks" that are clearly pro-Israel. I doubt any are actually Arab and NOT on the payroll. Forget it, because I don;t even care what you think.

Now I am done. Won't even read your reply.

DP

Please reconsider. Voices like yours will be part of the healing process, overcoming the distortions and manipulations that are central to the Zionist movement’s stranglehold of U.S. policy in the region.

The US rightly recognizes that a democratic country that is pro US and also upholds many western values including but not limited to freedom of religion, rights for women, rights for LGTBQ+, rights for racial minorities, is aligned with US interests vs Iran-backed regimes and terrorists groups that dominate the region. That’s not the “Zionists” (Jew haters love wielding that word but it betrays your intent); that is good US foreign policy.

Now sure, you can say Netanyahu isn’t a good guy, agree. But just like I’m not giving up on the US because of Trump and hope our allies won’t either, not going to abandon Israel for what is essentially Iran’s Islamist regime.

Obviously the U.S. has more than two policy choices in the Middle East, The suggestion that we either have to give full 100% support to Israel or we must align with Iran is ridiculous. At a minimum, the U.S. should follow U.S. law which prohibits supplying weapons to countries that are preventing humanitarian aid to reach victims. Israel is clearly doing that in northern Gaza. As such, the U.S. should follow our own law and immediately halt all weapons deliveries.

Second, the U.S., as a member of the United Nations and a Security Council member, has a responsibility to ensure the safety of of U.N. peacekeeping forces. Israel has repeatedly attacked UNIFIL forces in southern Lebanon, wounding several soldiers. Today Israeli forces invaded a UNIFIL base. The U.S. should stop all support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon until Israel halts its aggression toward the peacekeeping forces.

Third, today Secretary of Defense Austin authorized the deployment of a THAAD missile defense system and a crew of U.S. personnel to man it to Israel. This is the deployment of U.S. forces into a war zone where there is a good chance they will be involved in conflict. This should not be done without Congressional authorization and should not be done at all until Israel adheres to U.S. demands regarding a ceasefire in Gaza, the resumption of humanitarian aid, a ceasefire in Lebanon, and an end to the seize of northern Gaza.

The U.S. relationship with Israel had been one-sided for far too long. It is time for the U.S. to follow its own laws and pursue its own interests.

Thank god there are voices better than mine to swat deceptive posts like the PP’s drivel into the dustbin of history. Appreciate this so much, the unraveling of years of fake news justification for America’s support of Israel.

There’s nothing in my post that was fake news - and please be explicit if you’re going to say that. I may have a differing perspective but that doesn’t make the facts of the situation “fake”.

As to Jeff’s post, yes, agree that the US should condition military aid. Humanitarian aid is impacted by Hamas’ continued attacks in Israel.
And Israel is entering into Lebanon to address Hezbollah that is embedded and attacking from that area. This is a two-sided war between Israel and the defacto regime (Iranian proxy), Hezbollah. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel since October 8. Any other nation in the world would seek to eradicate the threat of rockets continually fired into its space. Israel is not different in this regard.

Same with Gaza. You have a very active Hamas presence intent on continuing conflict. A ceasefire takes two.

Dishonesty: “democratic”; using “Western values” as a term of virtue; claiming that Israel, as embodied by its leadership, wants a ceasefire; arguing that events prior to
10/6 are irrelevant; and on and on.

Your posts are embarrassingly bereft of facts. It’s just Israeli propaganda.

Have you been to Israel? Doesn’t sound like it.

If you have gone to Israel you’d know that things like freedom of religion, freedom for women, the rights of LGBTQ+ people, and the rights of minorities are far more aligned with what we in western democracies hold dear than any of Israel’s neighbors. Is it perfect? No, Israel is not perfect. But it is far more democratic than any other country in the region and, yes, aligns with principles of many western democracies. It’s also pro US, unlike most of the region (and yes, that’s going back decades).

Not sure what you’re referencing about 10/6 but don’t think you do either.

The hard part to square with my democratic western values is that Israel is killing thousands, maiming thousands more, making orphans and widows of many, displacing millions, starving many. Yes, I get that Israel feels threatened bit they have gone way to far. Also, there is no way this is making their citizens safer. Just today there was a drone attack (on a military base fyi not a hospital or a school) in Israel. It’s enough. We have to stop sending weapons (although also just today went sent more plus soldiers).

Israel is doing what we'd do. We killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we committed plenty of war crimes along the way. We're still holding people in Guantanamo Bay. Doesn't make it okay, but we'd do it again in a heartbeat if another 9/11 happened on our shores.

I protested our involvement in Iraq too. Afghanistan we clearly messed up. But just bc we have blood on our hands doesn’t make it right for Israel, with a founding based on knowing what suffering is, to inflict such suffering on others.

I would anlso anrgue that it’s also not making Israel any safer. Only stirring up new generations of hate.

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Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

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Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

What a gross response as I listen to Maher and people like you justify the massacre of my people and reducing us to one dimensional caricatures who just want to kill Jews.

What peace plans? Be specific in the details, since you people never are. You are a LIGHT-WEIGHT. I can write your responses for you at this point because it's all the same garbage with no context or details because that would then show you have no valid argument. The only peace deal that ever came close to being fair was one that ended the moment a bullet hit Rabin. WHO KILLED HIM?

Don't you dare speak down to me when you are the ones trying to erase my people and nullify our existence and claim we never existed at all. What other psychos get to do that to a group of people to justify murdering them TODAY? Putin isn't even as insidious as Netayanhu and that disgusting Knesset.

75 f***ing years of people like you watching tax money going towards killing my people and stealing everything from us. You want young people who watch countless videos of YEARS of IDF and settlers beating the sh*t out of Palestinians, to go along with you and you want to just sit there and pretend we are the violent ones?

You're clearly of a certain age where you think your same, tire responses work. You still think everyone should continue to believe the lies about "antisemitism' and just want to kill Jews and all of the other despicable racist tropes you get away with to justify an occupation.

My people paid for what EUROPE did. PERIOD. Until you accept that fact, don't ever talk about who started what and who brought violence to Palestine.

You've chosen to lie to yourself about history. You and Bill Maher --that worthless, disgusting bigot too cowardly to debate any of us-- want the younger generation to believe the lies you tell them regarding the history of how that country was even created. They refuse to swallow your revisionist tripe that has been pushed by traditional media which no longer has any credibility.

Have you ever heard of 'turn the other cheek'? Or do you only know 'an eye for an eye'? For your children's sake, give up your bloodlust.

NP. Go preach that to the Israelis murdering everything that moves in the Middle East as we speak. 50,000+ dead and counting over their 1,200. They’re not just asking for an eye; they’re taking both eyes and all the organs.

That's an excellent point. This is a battle between far right extremists. Once it ends I hope the same patterns aren't repeated 10 years from now. Only the peacemakers on both sides can save them.

Hezbollah literally stopped firing because of peacekeepers in the vicinity while Israel tried to use them as human shields. Here's your "peacemaker". A former WH adviser no less. Another rabid Zionist "peacemaker" referring to peacekeepers:

"I hope every one of those useless POS Irishmen are blasted to bits," Brodsky said on social media platform X on Saturday, October 5.
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/matthew-brodsky-irish

That’s disturbing and such an ugly thing to say. Imagine if someone said “I hope every one of those POS Americans coming in to help are blasted to bits”. Iranian leaders are probably saying it which makes Brodsky no better than extremist dictators.

Ireland is a peaceful country (besides their constant fighting England’s colonialism) and they are focused on using their tiny army for peacekeeping around the world.

Israel has requested that the UNIFIL peacekeepers withdraw from southern Lebanon, but the Irish PM rejected that.
He said: “We cannot have a situation where aggression can force a peacekeeping mission to leave." Good for Ireland.

Just wanted to make sure everyone noticed this detail:
Matthew Brodsky, is a a former Trump White House advisor