Bill Maher explains the Middle East to Gen Z: Can anyone really dispute the facts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

I'd use nothing as an epithet and just call people out on their actual positions once they make them known. Zionism is just belief in a Jewish homeland the vast majority of Jews share. It doesn't indicate a specific position on the conflict at all. Imo it's jarring to see it used as a slur and it makes people less willing to engage.

“belief in a Jewish homeland”

Consider this point: the homeland was already home to others. Think and reflect on this point for a minute.

If you can’t accept this: THAt is the root of the problem.

Deflecting and blaming people for labeling it Zionism doesn’t make it less so.

The Holocaust was beyond words and purges in Europe were horrible (I can relate, I’m descended from Ukrainian Jews who left in the early 1900s bc of the pogroms).

It’s a lovely idea that there was a “land without people for a people without land” and I vividly remember in elementary school watching a documentary on how the Jews made the desert bloom. But this was a lie.

Right now Israel is killing, maiming (and I keep repeating this on this board bc it’s true and beyond horrible) and displacing thousands of people. How can a good Jew think this is ok? How do you justify this to yourself?

I agree that Israel should exist bc now it’s there and millions of Jews live there that should live. But Palestinians and Lebanese serve to live too. Any “right” that Israel has does not give it the right to inflict suffering onto others. Jews are better than this. We know what pain is. We know historical trauma. Let’s lean into our empathy.

The America I want to live in is better than this too.

I’m off my soapbox but it is so clear to me that Israel’s / Zionist’s’ (I think the term Zionist is better and less of a sweeping generalization that leads to hate crimes bc I know not all Israelis agree with Israel’s actions) are wrong that I just don’t know how a good human can think otherwise.

I'm the Palestinian on here, and the idea I wouldn't want to live with you and hate you because you're Jewish, is precisely what Zionism is. Instinctively treating me like a "terrorist" and/or that I don't exist, I don't have a culture or identity and my life has no meaning.

We both as a people have suffered, but those who did most of the harm to the Jewish people were never really made to pay for what they had done and made us pay for those sins. When you have Netanyahu absolving Hitler and attempting to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust, that is what Zionism does. Not Judaism.

Not totally sure the bolded part is true. Netanyahu absolving Hitler doesn't really mean anything in terms of how most people understand the Holocaust or European antisemitism.

It allows the Israelis to commit their own holocaust. There is little difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. The state of Israel is planing to starve 2.3 million people to death. How many Jews were killed in WW2?

Israel's Netanyahu considers plan to starve Gaza's civilians to death
Sunday, 13 October 2024 6:36 PM [ Last Update: Sunday, 13 October 2024 6:36 PM ]

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/10/13/735183/Palestine-Gaza-Netanyahu-Matthew-Miller---

If Israel is allowed to kill 2.3 million Palestinians out of 7-8 Palestinians it would be the same as the holocaust.

There is no opposition to this plan in Israel…never again?

There is certainly opposition to this evil plan in Israel. Just yesterday, the Washington Post reported that the Israeli military opposes the plan, as do Israeli human rights groups and even some members of Netanyahu's own insane government. And at any rate, it's not being justified by Netanyahu's remarks on Hitler.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

I'd use nothing as an epithet and just call people out on their actual positions once they make them known. Zionism is just belief in a Jewish homeland the vast majority of Jews share. It doesn't indicate a specific position on the conflict at all. Imo it's jarring to see it used as a slur and it makes people less willing to engage.

“belief in a Jewish homeland”

Consider this point: the homeland was already home to others. Think and reflect on this point for a minute.

If you can’t accept this: THAt is the root of the problem.

Deflecting and blaming people for labeling it Zionism doesn’t make it less so.

The Holocaust was beyond words and purges in Europe were horrible (I can relate, I’m descended from Ukrainian Jews who left in the early 1900s bc of the pogroms).

It’s a lovely idea that there was a “land without people for a people without land” and I vividly remember in elementary school watching a documentary on how the Jews made the desert bloom. But this was a lie.

Right now Israel is killing, maiming (and I keep repeating this on this board bc it’s true and beyond horrible) and displacing thousands of people. How can a good Jew think this is ok? How do you justify this to yourself?

I agree that Israel should exist bc now it’s there and millions of Jews live there that should live. But Palestinians and Lebanese serve to live too. Any “right” that Israel has does not give it the right to inflict suffering onto others. Jews are better than this. We know what pain is. We know historical trauma. Let’s lean into our empathy.

The America I want to live in is better than this too.

I’m off my soapbox but it is so clear to me that Israel’s / Zionist’s’ (I think the term Zionist is better and less of a sweeping generalization that leads to hate crimes bc I know not all Israelis agree with Israel’s actions) are wrong that I just don’t know how a good human can think otherwise.

I'm the Palestinian on here, and the idea I wouldn't want to live with you and hate you because you're Jewish, is precisely what Zionism is. Instinctively treating me like a "terrorist" and/or that I don't exist, I don't have a culture or identity and my life has no meaning.

We both as a people have suffered, but those who did most of the harm to the Jewish people were never really made to pay for what they had done and made us pay for those sins. When you have Netanyahu absolving Hitler and attempting to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust, that is what Zionism does. Not Judaism.

Not totally sure the bolded part is true. Netanyahu absolving Hitler doesn't really mean anything in terms of how most people understand the Holocaust or European antisemitism.

It allows the Israelis to commit their own holocaust. There is little difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. The state of Israel is planing to starve 2.3 million people to death. How many Jews were killed in WW2?

Israel's Netanyahu considers plan to starve Gaza's civilians to death
Sunday, 13 October 2024 6:36 PM [ Last Update: Sunday, 13 October 2024 6:36 PM ]

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/10/13/735183/Palestine-Gaza-Netanyahu-Matthew-Miller---

If Israel is allowed to kill 2.3 million Palestinians out of 7-8 Palestinians it would be the same as the holocaust.

There is no opposition to this plan in Israel…never again?

There is certainly opposition to this evil plan in Israel. Just yesterday, the Washington Post reported that the Israeli military opposes the plan, as do Israeli human rights groups and even some members of Netanyahu's own insane government. And at any rate, it's not being justified by Netanyahu's remarks on Hitler.

Are you reading the Hebrew or English versions of the news in Israel. One is for US consumption. The other show the true Israel and there is no real opposition to this plan. It has already been implemented.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

I've been moderating this website the same way for 20 years. Thanks for your warning but I think the site has a few more years in it. Opinions are one thing, but making completely false statements does not benefit anyone. But, if you prefer lies and misinformation, I can recommend some websites that would be better suited for you.

No, you have behaved differently on this topic.
Why don't you make a sticky letting people know what they can and cannot say? Why keep up the pretense that people can say what they want, particularly when you just said you will delete posts that say some specific things?

What do you see as the value of outright lies? I am not sure why, but in one of your earlier posts you accused me of saying things that I did not say. What is the value of that? I've left your post because I don't really care about lies about me. But in a topic like this, what is the value of someone stating things that factually are not true (e.g. that Hamas would bomb any church that it could despite one of the most ancient churches being safe under Hamas until Israel bombed it)? I am really confused as to why keeping objectively false information is important to you.

Speaking of outright lies, your Palestinian friend just stated Israel killed its own people in the attack last Oct in air strikes

That's not a lie. That has been reported by Israeli newspapers. Israel invoked the "Hannibal Protocol" which allowed the military to kill Israelis in the process of trying to kill Hamas fighters. In addition, an order was issued to prevent hostage-taking at all costs. As a result, the Israelis blew up any car heading to the border without concern about who was in it. In many cases, they killed Israelis:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000

This reports on that article but is not pay-walled:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-hannibal-protocol-during-oct-7-fighting-report/

"The Haaretz daily newspaper reported on Sunday that it had obtained documents and collected testimonies from troops who partook in the fighting on October 7. The data, Haaretz said, collectively pointed toward the use of the Hannibal Protocol, a military order officially repealed in 2016 that granted troops broad permission to do whatever necessary to prevent the kidnapping of a fellow soldier, including potentially endangering their life."
...

"The response from command was an order for “Hannibal at Erez,” Haaretz alleged, and an instruction to dispatch an attack drone. Half an hour later, a second abduction was reported and the same order was said to have been issued."
...

"In November 2023, a separate Haaretz report alleged that a small number of civilians may have been injured by fire from a military chopper as they were fleeing the Supernova music festival, held in the fields of Kibbutz Re’im."
...

"According to the investigation, amid battles that took place in southern Israel on October 7, an IAF helicopter opened fire on a car with several terrorists in it. It was later revealed, based on eyewitnesses, videos from the helicopter, and surveillance camera footage, that the vehicle also had Israeli hostages in it."
...

"Toward the evening, as the IDF fought to regain control of the Gaza border communities, Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram, the commander of the IDF’s 99th Division, ordered a tank to fire on a home in Kibbutz Be’eri, where Hamas terrorists were holding 14 Israelis hostage. The tank fired two shells toward the house. Of the 14 who had been held hostage, 13 were killed in the intense firefight between Israeli troops and the Hamas terrorists."

So Hamas took hostages and we are now blaming Israel for that too, they know hostages are already dead maybe not on the same day

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

Actuallly, you skipped over Jordan and Iraq.

"From the river to the sea" was originally an early Zionist slogan, with the river being the Euphrates." See also their early ditty: "Two sides has the Jordan; this one's our, and that one too."

I am not sure that Lebanon figured into the earliest Zionist dreams, but later it became apparent that Israel lusted over the waters of the Litani.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

Actuallly, you skipped over Jordan and Iraq.

"From the river to the sea" was originally an early Zionist slogan, with the river being the Euphrates." See also their early ditty: "Two sides has the Jordan; this one's our, and that one too."

I am not sure that Lebanon figured into the earliest Zionist dreams, but later it became apparent that Israel lusted over the waters of the Litani.

Yet you live in a country that believes in Manifest Destiny and spread from ocean to ocean. Why are you ok with that?

[Anonymous]

Bill Maher, like most Zionists, possesses some combination of ignorance and evil.

And no, one does not need to be Jewish or Christian to be zionists, just racist.

See UN Resolution 3379, which declared Zionism to be “a form of racism and racial discrimnation"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

Actuallly, you skipped over Jordan and Iraq.

"From the river to the sea" was originally an early Zionist slogan, with the river being the Euphrates." See also their early ditty: "Two sides has the Jordan; this one's our, and that one too."

I am not sure that Lebanon figured into the earliest Zionist dreams, but later it became apparent that Israel lusted over the waters of the Litani.

Yet you live in a country that believes in Manifest Destiny and spread from ocean to ocean. Why are you ok with that?

We now provide billions in aid to Indian nations plus they are full citizens with rights to come and go from reservations without checkpoints and harassment. We also don't build houses on their reservation. Plus they get to vote and have US passports.

Will Israel promise this to Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank (and those living on any additional land they occupy in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan) after all of this is over? I doubt it.

I believe Israel has a right to exist now because (a) it's there and (b) millions of humans live there. However, I believe Israel's actions are abhorrent since they do not afford Palestinians that same luxury (ie the right to exist). The rebuttal will surely say something like "well Hamas started it on 10/7" and therein lies the crux of the issue. That is not when the problem started. It began when original Israeli settlers/Zionists kicked Palestinians off of their land (both legally and illegally) and proceeded to not acknowledge this original sin, but to double down and blame the people they had kicked out. I vividly remember being told these lies growing up even here in the US. We were taught about the holocaust almost every year and the story would end with the fact that after the war the Jewish people returned to their "homeland" to make the "desert bloom". It was not until I visited the region that I learned that others lived on this land before them and had left flourishing farms/orchards behind as a nice head start.

I honestly don't know how people in the region can ever heal from the trauma they have suffered in this latest infliction of horrors. However, I believe it needs to begin by acknowledging the reality of history and real facts (i.e. not Bill Maher's version).

As far as using the term "Zionist": to me that means the right to a homeland based on a claim from thousands of years ago and without regard for others that lived there in the meantime. It's not a term I associate with antisemitism and when people do try to assert that it is, I think they are deflecting and trying to turn attention away from the horrible things Israel is doing now.

Now to say, we have a right to live here because this is where we were born or immigrated to and we are humans - yes. I agree with that. But at the same time, these people have to acknowledge and respect the other humans involved too.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

Actuallly, you skipped over Jordan and Iraq.

"From the river to the sea" was originally an early Zionist slogan, with the river being the Euphrates." See also their early ditty: "Two sides has the Jordan; this one's our, and that one too."

I am not sure that Lebanon figured into the earliest Zionist dreams, but later it became apparent that Israel lusted over the waters of the Litani.

Yet you live in a country that believes in Manifest Destiny and spread from ocean to ocean. Why are you ok with that?

We now provide billions in aid to Indian nations plus they are full citizens with rights to come and go from reservations without checkpoints and harassment. We also don't build houses on their reservation. Plus they get to vote and have US passports.

Will Israel promise this to Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank (and those living on any additional land they occupy in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan) after all of this is over? I doubt it.

I believe Israel has a right to exist now because (a) it's there and (b) millions of humans live there. However, I believe Israel's actions are abhorrent since they do not afford Palestinians that same luxury (ie the right to exist). The rebuttal will surely say something like "well Hamas started it on 10/7" and therein lies the crux of the issue. That is not when the problem started. It began when original Israeli settlers/Zionists kicked Palestinians off of their land (both legally and illegally) and proceeded to not acknowledge this original sin, but to double down and blame the people they had kicked out. I vividly remember being told these lies growing up even here in the US. We were taught about the holocaust almost every year and the story would end with the fact that after the war the Jewish people returned to their "homeland" to make the "desert bloom". It was not until I visited the region that I learned that others lived on this land before them and had left flourishing farms/orchards behind as a nice head start.

I honestly don't know how people in the region can ever heal from the trauma they have suffered in this latest infliction of horrors. However, I believe it needs to begin by acknowledging the reality of history and real facts (i.e. not Bill Maher's version).

As far as using the term "Zionist": to me that means the right to a homeland based on a claim from thousands of years ago and without regard for others that lived there in the meantime. It's not a term I associate with antisemitism and when people do try to assert that it is, I think they are deflecting and trying to turn attention away from the horrible things Israel is doing now.

Now to say, we have a right to live here because this is where we were born or immigrated to and we are humans - yes. I agree with that. But at the same time, these people have to acknowledge and respect the other humans involved too.

So you are saying since the government seized my ancestors property years ago, therefore I should in protest raise an army, commit terror attacks, and kidnap and murder my neighbors children in protest. Brilliant plan.

[Anonymous]

Holocaust survivor Gabor Mate on Gaza: It’s like we’re watching Auschwitz on TikTok. He has much more credibility than Bill Maher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To my read of the original meaning Zionism is the view that there should be a Jewish state across the land that is Israel as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon.

I also think there is an element of the view that it’s okay to kill, maime, and slaughter in a disproportionate attack on others. And an unwillingness to accept that fact that by establishing Israel there was harm done to others.

Maybe there is a different term? Not sure what to use in its place. Have any suggestions? I certainly am not anti Jewish. I am also not anti Israeli. I am anti anyone who think what Israel is doing is ok.

Actuallly, you skipped over Jordan and Iraq.

"From the river to the sea" was originally an early Zionist slogan, with the river being the Euphrates." See also their early ditty: "Two sides has the Jordan; this one's our, and that one too."

I am not sure that Lebanon figured into the earliest Zionist dreams, but later it became apparent that Israel lusted over the waters of the Litani.

Yet you live in a country that believes in Manifest Destiny and spread from ocean to ocean. Why are you ok with that?

We now provide billions in aid to Indian nations plus they are full citizens with rights to come and go from reservations without checkpoints and harassment. We also don't build houses on their reservation. Plus they get to vote and have US passports.

Will Israel promise this to Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank (and those living on any additional land they occupy in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan) after all of this is over? I doubt it.

I believe Israel has a right to exist now because (a) it's there and (b) millions of humans live there. However, I believe Israel's actions are abhorrent since they do not afford Palestinians that same luxury (ie the right to exist). The rebuttal will surely say something like "well Hamas started it on 10/7" and therein lies the crux of the issue. That is not when the problem started. It began when original Israeli settlers/Zionists kicked Palestinians off of their land (both legally and illegally) and proceeded to not acknowledge this original sin, but to double down and blame the people they had kicked out. I vividly remember being told these lies growing up even here in the US. We were taught about the holocaust almost every year and the story would end with the fact that after the war the Jewish people returned to their "homeland" to make the "desert bloom". It was not until I visited the region that I learned that others lived on this land before them and had left flourishing farms/orchards behind as a nice head start.

I honestly don't know how people in the region can ever heal from the trauma they have suffered in this latest infliction of horrors. However, I believe it needs to begin by acknowledging the reality of history and real facts (i.e. not Bill Maher's version).

As far as using the term "Zionist": to me that means the right to a homeland based on a claim from thousands of years ago and without regard for others that lived there in the meantime. It's not a term I associate with antisemitism and when people do try to assert that it is, I think they are deflecting and trying to turn attention away from the horrible things Israel is doing now.

Now to say, we have a right to live here because this is where we were born or immigrated to and we are humans - yes. I agree with that. But at the same time, these people have to acknowledge and respect the other humans involved too.

So you are saying since the government seized my ancestors property years ago, therefore I should in protest raise an army, commit terror attacks, and kidnap and murder my neighbors children in protest. Brilliant plan.

This is exactly what the Israel did.