My kid is in a class with a chair thrower

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

Modern parenting and everyone knows it.

30-40 years ago the parents probably spanked the crap out of the kid and he never tried it again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So who is home with the child assisting with this virtual education? This is such an unreasonable and expensive solution.

Advocate for one on one aides for these children in the classroom. I have a friend with a violent kid and he does well in the classroom with his personal aide. There has not been a single incident at school.

How is virtual education any more unreasonable or expensive than a one on one aide? A one on one aide could certainly help with virtual education.

The one on one aide can leave most of the education to the teacher and focus on behavior in school. Virtual education needs more assistance with the material at home. So the child might need a teacher and an aide at ho.e.

My kids were in kindergarten and second grade during the pandemic. I had to play assistant teacher.

Why would you need a teacher and an aide 1:1? If that's what a child needs a mainstream classroom would never meet that need, so what then?

That's not true -- there are absolutely kids who have this exact set up. They are in standard classrooms but have an aide who is there for at least part of the day to help that child bridge the gap between classroom expectations and their more limited ability. It's also very common in Title 1 schools to have aides in Kindergarten classrooms and even if they are not a 1:1 aide for a specific child, they facilitate a lot more 1:1 coaching.

This isn't even a new thing, in fact I think one issue is that it's become less common. There were Sped kids in my elementary school in the 80s who had 1:1 aides in the class. Again, sometimes one aide just for one very high needs kid, but also sometimes a specialist who might rotate classrooms throughout the day be could be there for part of the day, often to help with the aspects of mainstream education that were the biggest challenge for that kid.

Kids in virtual learning have a 1:1 teacher AND a 1:1 aide? That's what PP is suggesting. That is ridiculous.

A virtual 1:1 aide should be sufficient.

[Anonymous]

I think virtual learning and the parents have to assist is perfectly reasonable. Didn't schools say that they aren't daycare? Maintaining control of tantruming kids = daycare.

Can't you all see from the scores that all students are doing worse year after year. What's changed? The ability of teachers to maintain discipline. They're not allowed to. It's like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we don't let other students have an education because they're constantly being evacuated.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:NP---My kid was a chair thrower in elem school. He was my 2nd and Yes I knew something wasn't right by about 2. I went to the dev ped who said wait and see. The regular ped had no advice. It wasn't until the end of PreK 3 that the preschool indicated that this was so far above the norm that they would no longer work with him.

Got my kid into PEP and with a high teacher/student ratio and small classes, he did fine. So well in fact that they closed his IEP going into K. At the general K meeting for incoming students in May, I asked what the plan was.....I was told that during the first few months of K, it is all hands on deck. That does not sound like a solid plan to me. I put my kid in private and the smaller classes worked well until 2nd grade.

In 2nd grade, I moved my kid to public, met with the principal, told him what was going on and that I wanted to start the IEP process. He said we needed to wait. Not surprisingly, I got a call within the first week that we needed to start the IEP process. It took me 6 months to get his IEP back in place and that was with me providing an outside evaluation. Had I wanted to use the school psychologist, the timeline would have been longer. In retrospect, I wish I had sent my kid to public K. The IEP would have happened earlier in his school career.

All this is to say---for parents with NT children, be grateful your kid can regulate. As many others have pointed out, many of us are doing all we can to get both our kids and your kids the appropriate education. We want our kids moved to the right environment. Even when the school is working with us, there are timelines everyone has to follow. It is not good for anyone. But to come on DCUM and tell us that we are crappy parents, that our kids deserve to be beaten, that they should be regulated to virtual learning, that our kids do not deserve the same education that your child receives is wrong and infuriating. I truly hope that no one in your family ever has to manage a child with an invisible disability.

To be fair, the parent of the neurodivergent child is telling others that their child deserves to have a chair thrown in his face again and again until his parents can't handle it and divorce. Do you think other kids deserve to be attacked in school as well? They are children too, deserving of an education in a safe environment, they aren't just tools serving as peer models in the classroom.

I agree with you. No one deserves to be in an unsafe environment. Not NT kids, not teachers, not administrators, not the kid with special needs. The issue is with the way the school system handles the bureaucracy and limits the number of seats available in specialized programs. My kid has been in non public and is now in a self contained classroom. In both scenarios, there were between 6-8 kids in his class. Just from this thread alone, I would surmise that there are more than 6-8 kids per grade that need the help. In self contained classes, the class is often the grade. Looking at MCPS, there are 2 locations for HFA students--so lets say they take a total of 16 kids across the county per grade (1-5) or 80 kids in total. There are 3 Bridge MS and HS programs. So again, 24 kids per grade across the county. I'm not familiar with SESES or ESESES so I can't comment on how many kids are in those programs.

For many of these dysregulated kids, the root of the issue is anxiety. A smaller number of bodies in the room creates less chaos, less noise, enables more adult supervision. When a kid with anxiety gets overwhelmed, there is the fight or flight response. Both responses require a large amount of adult intervention. Smaller classes would benefit all kids. But smaller classes cost money.

Why isn't virtual schooling an option then? Reduces anxiety, small class, fewer adults needed, costs less. Seems like a pretty good solution.

If virtual schooling is such a great option, then why did so many parents argue that it wasn't good during the pandemic? What do the kids that don't have stable internet do? How does a teacher keep a child engaged over a screen? How does a parent that has to work leave a child home alone? Yes---I hear you---school is not daycare, parents cannot transfer parenting responsibilities to the schools. But realistically---parents have to work and the child will be left home alone. There will be no one there to make sure that a child is receiving an education. An uneducated child becomes an uneducated adult. It kicks the can down the road. This person will require more social services in the long run.

Because it isn't a good option for all kids, obviously. We're talking about a subset of kids. The kids with extreme anxiety or dysregulation like the PP was mentioning. Other kids do well in full classrooms and don't require lot of adult intervention. But I see that it's more about convenience for the parent vs what is best for the child.

It's not always so black and white. Sure, if the child with SN is an only child in a 2 parent household with a SAHP, then virtual schooling could work. But if the choice is send your kid to school so you can work and house and feed your family, then that's what you're going to do. You're showing the bias in this thread---you take your kids needs into account first--as you should. To you, your child is more important than someone elses child with special needs. As far as your concerned, this is that parents issue and they need to deal with it.

From a parent with multiple children they need to look out for their overall family. If they stop going to work where will they live? How will they eat? Their priority is their family, not yours.

You are doing the same. Your child is more important than the other 20. But the dysregulated prone to outbursts child isn't being served well in public schools. No matter how tolerant or accepting the other children and staff may be. If that was the best place for these kids then your argument would make sense and these kids wouldn't act out so much. It's not working.

I agree with you. I pointed out earlier that specialized classes are restricted in numbers. When FAPE was introduced at the federal level, there was no funding provided for the States to implement it. School systems are doing the best they can with the resources they have while following the laws. It is not working for anyone.

It needs to be fixed so ALL children can receive a free and appropriate education.

But free and appropriate can't always mean a mainstream classroom. Virtual schooling needs to be one of the options until the maturity catches up. Parents may have to make hard choices and put career on the back burner. The government should pay them a stipend to oversee the kids education in the meantime.

Virtual schooling is an option IF the team deems, through the IEP process, that virtual education the appropriate means to meet the child’s needs.

Now you're balking. That means the parents have to agree also. Some parents don't want to deal with this. Work becomes an escape from reality and they'd rather the school do the heavy lifting even if the setting isn't appropriate.

You have a child who can do well either virtual school or homeschooling but choose to send them to public school because it is their right.

Those parents pay taxes like you.

And they actually need that break. You don't. If someone should keep their kids at home, it's you.

A school is not a medical facility. It's not an educator's job to be a therapist or provide a break for parents, nor should a school district shoulder all the financial burden of a child's mental health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

- Corporal punishment
- Suspensions/expulsion
- Kid sits in the hallway or in the principal's office for the better part of many days
- School calls in parents every time there is a problem and kid has to go home with them, eventually family pulls kid and puts him in private or homeschools because they can't keep doing that

The reason none of this are options anymore is liability. Corporal punishment is child abuse, we're not bringing that back (thank god). Suspensions and expulsions have been subject to extensive studies and are highly correlated with de facto racist politics which is why you do not see it anymore. In a school district with a lot of minority students, and where poverty and minority status are highly correlative, you are going to wind up with with overwhelming minority students being expelled, and that's a lawsuit (and a problem in and of itself).

The last two, where the kid basically gets removed from class and doesn't learn anything, but isn't technically suspended, won't work if the child has a diagnosed issue (you run afoul of several laws that way), plus doesn't work if a child is truly dysregulated because someone has to watch that kid and it's not going to be the school admin or nurse. The last one won't happen because parents are more educated as to their rights, and instead you are going to wind up with an IEP, so instead of the parent showing up and taking the kid home, you just have IEP meeting after IEP meeting. And that's what parents on this thread are describing, where they are in there saying "my kid needs to be in a small classroom environment" or "my child has sensory issues that require a self-contained classroom", sometimes with a lawyer in tow. But if the IEP is not yet in place or there is conflict over whether the diagnosis merits that solution, back to the mainstream classroom they go.

The idea that we used to handle this situation any better is very naive, but doesn't mean we now handle it well. We've just shifted all the problems to different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

Modern parenting and everyone knows it.

And the 2004 IDEA law. The fake idea that special needs kids have "equal" rights which in reality means they have WAY MORE rights than non special needs kids. It was the beginning of the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

It wasn’t. This would not have been tolerated back then. If a kid was so dys-regulated that they were throwing chairs on a regular basis, they’d be placed in the special Ed classroom.

These behaviors don’t happen in a vacuum. A child who throws a chair and sees the classroom cleared just for them had no reason to not do it again. The lack of discipline, and the fact that administrators don’t back up teachers imposing discipline in their classrooms, encourages this environment. Go read the teachers subreddit. The things teachers are expected to put up with is insane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

- Corporal punishment
- Suspensions/expulsion
- Kid sits in the hallway or in the principal's office for the better part of many days
- School calls in parents every time there is a problem and kid has to go home with them, eventually family pulls kid and puts him in private or homeschools because they can't keep doing that

The reason none of this are options anymore is liability. Corporal punishment is child abuse, we're not bringing that back (thank god). Suspensions and expulsions have been subject to extensive studies and are highly correlated with de facto racist politics which is why you do not see it anymore. In a school district with a lot of minority students, and where poverty and minority status are highly correlative, you are going to wind up with with overwhelming minority students being expelled, and that's a lawsuit (and a problem in and of itself).

The last two, where the kid basically gets removed from class and doesn't learn anything, but isn't technically suspended, won't work if the child has a diagnosed issue (you run afoul of several laws that way), plus doesn't work if a child is truly dysregulated because someone has to watch that kid and it's not going to be the school admin or nurse. The last one won't happen because parents are more educated as to their rights, and instead you are going to wind up with an IEP, so instead of the parent showing up and taking the kid home, you just have IEP meeting after IEP meeting. And that's what parents on this thread are describing, where they are in there saying "my kid needs to be in a small classroom environment" or "my child has sensory issues that require a self-contained classroom", sometimes with a lawyer in tow. But if the IEP is not yet in place or there is conflict over whether the diagnosis merits that solution, back to the mainstream classroom they go.

The idea that we used to handle this situation any better is very naive, but doesn't mean we now handle it well. We've just shifted all the problems to different things.

Strongly disagree. This is not an improvement, at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So who is home with the child assisting with this virtual education? This is such an unreasonable and expensive solution.

Advocate for one on one aides for these children in the classroom. I have a friend with a violent kid and he does well in the classroom with his personal aide. There has not been a single incident at school.

How is virtual education any more unreasonable or expensive than a one on one aide? A one on one aide could certainly help with virtual education.

The one on one aide can leave most of the education to the teacher and focus on behavior in school. Virtual education needs more assistance with the material at home. So the child might need a teacher and an aide at ho.e.

My kids were in kindergarten and second grade during the pandemic. I had to play assistant teacher.

Why would you need a teacher and an aide 1:1? If that's what a child needs a mainstream classroom would never meet that need, so what then?

That's not true -- there are absolutely kids who have this exact set up. They are in standard classrooms but have an aide who is there for at least part of the day to help that child bridge the gap between classroom expectations and their more limited ability. It's also very common in Title 1 schools to have aides in Kindergarten classrooms and even if they are not a 1:1 aide for a specific child, they facilitate a lot more 1:1 coaching.

This isn't even a new thing, in fact I think one issue is that it's become less common. There were Sped kids in my elementary school in the 80s who had 1:1 aides in the class. Again, sometimes one aide just for one very high needs kid, but also sometimes a specialist who might rotate classrooms throughout the day be could be there for part of the day, often to help with the aspects of mainstream education that were the biggest challenge for that kid.

Kids in virtual learning have a 1:1 teacher AND a 1:1 aide? That's what PP is suggesting. That is ridiculous.

I think the implication from the PP is that the parents wind up filling the role of aide but the kid still needs a teacher. The point is that "virtual school" isn't really public-provided education if you aren't providing in-home help because even with a parent there to facilitate the learning, you need a teacher, and person on a screen isn't really a teacher. Virtual school isn't school, and not all parents are qualified to homeschool, plus the kids in question have extra needs beyond education and even if the parent is handling those, they still need a teacher.

Thus we're back to the idea that these kids need to be in an actual school where there are at least some economies of scale in terms of providing these things. Most schools also have more than one kid with these needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

- Corporal punishment
- Suspensions/expulsion
- Kid sits in the hallway or in the principal's office for the better part of many days
- School calls in parents every time there is a problem and kid has to go home with them, eventually family pulls kid and puts him in private or homeschools because they can't keep doing that

The reason none of this are options anymore is liability. Corporal punishment is child abuse, we're not bringing that back (thank god). Suspensions and expulsions have been subject to extensive studies and are highly correlated with de facto racist politics which is why you do not see it anymore. In a school district with a lot of minority students, and where poverty and minority status are highly correlative, you are going to wind up with with overwhelming minority students being expelled, and that's a lawsuit (and a problem in and of itself).

The last two, where the kid basically gets removed from class and doesn't learn anything, but isn't technically suspended, won't work if the child has a diagnosed issue (you run afoul of several laws that way), plus doesn't work if a child is truly dysregulated because someone has to watch that kid and it's not going to be the school admin or nurse. The last one won't happen because parents are more educated as to their rights, and instead you are going to wind up with an IEP, so instead of the parent showing up and taking the kid home, you just have IEP meeting after IEP meeting. And that's what parents on this thread are describing, where they are in there saying "my kid needs to be in a small classroom environment" or "my child has sensory issues that require a self-contained classroom", sometimes with a lawyer in tow. But if the IEP is not yet in place or there is conflict over whether the diagnosis merits that solution, back to the mainstream classroom they go.

The idea that we used to handle this situation any better is very naive, but doesn't mean we now handle it well. We've just shifted all the problems to different things.

Strongly disagree. This is not an improvement, at all.

Didn't say it was an improvement, just that it's not worse. Though I would argue that the acknowledgement that you can't just hit kids who misbehave is an improvement because pretty much all studies show this not only doesn't work, it makes the problems worse down the road and likely has negative externalities in society once those kids are grown (hitting children doesn't teach emotional regulation, it just teaches them that once you are in a position of authority, hitting people is a good way to solve a problem).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid got home from first grade today and started telling me there is a kid in his class who is mean to other kids and get SO MAD. Today he got SO MAD he threw a chair. So, what is my recourse here?

Be thankful that your child has the ability to self-regulate - this child does not want to be "bad"
Have compassion and teach your child compassion
Have your child ask the student if there is any thing that helps calm them down that they can help with

If your are looking for other "recourse" - maybe pull your child and enroll them in private school?

Didn't make it past this post yet, but in my experience, the principal told us parents to please report to her on email and cc the teacher about such incidents like chair throwing and punching, the latter which happened at recess and the teacher didn't see.

The reason was something like to get a kid a one-to-one aide or an additional paraprofessional in the classroom, they needed documentation. The more incidents that get logged, the more likely the classroom will get resources to help the kid, either in the class or if needed a special placement.

I would not blame the kid or the teacher in these emails, but rather document what you heard and ask what the plan is to avoid anyone getting hurt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did they do with chair throwers 30-40 years ago? I feel like this wasn't an issue when I was in school. So, did these kids just not exist back then? Maybe we should also try to figure out WHY this is happening and address the root cause instead of everyone standing around twiddling their thumbs.

It wasn’t. This would not have been tolerated back then. If a kid was so dys-regulated that they were throwing chairs on a regular basis, they’d be placed in the special Ed classroom.

These behaviors don’t happen in a vacuum. A child who throws a chair and sees the classroom cleared just for them had no reason to not do it again. The lack of discipline, and the fact that administrators don’t back up teachers imposing discipline in their classrooms, encourages this environment. Go read the teachers subreddit. The things teachers are expected to put up with is insane.

+1

They would go to the principal’s office and be sent home for the day or week. They did not mess around back then, thankfully. My daughter had to endure a furniture thrower for two of her elementary school years. It was an absolute nightmare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So who is home with the child assisting with this virtual education? This is such an unreasonable and expensive solution.

Advocate for one on one aides for these children in the classroom. I have a friend with a violent kid and he does well in the classroom with his personal aide. There has not been a single incident at school.

How is virtual education any more unreasonable or expensive than a one on one aide? A one on one aide could certainly help with virtual education.

The one on one aide can leave most of the education to the teacher and focus on behavior in school. Virtual education needs more assistance with the material at home. So the child might need a teacher and an aide at ho.e.

My kids were in kindergarten and second grade during the pandemic. I had to play assistant teacher.

Why would you need a teacher and an aide 1:1? If that's what a child needs a mainstream classroom would never meet that need, so what then?

That's not true -- there are absolutely kids who have this exact set up. They are in standard classrooms but have an aide who is there for at least part of the day to help that child bridge the gap between classroom expectations and their more limited ability. It's also very common in Title 1 schools to have aides in Kindergarten classrooms and even if they are not a 1:1 aide for a specific child, they facilitate a lot more 1:1 coaching.

This isn't even a new thing, in fact I think one issue is that it's become less common. There were Sped kids in my elementary school in the 80s who had 1:1 aides in the class. Again, sometimes one aide just for one very high needs kid, but also sometimes a specialist who might rotate classrooms throughout the day be could be there for part of the day, often to help with the aspects of mainstream education that were the biggest challenge for that kid.

My child has one. It's actually cheaper for the school than having them in a special education class. The only way you can get one in many districts is having your kid fail out.


We were offered a Nonverbal classroom (my daughter has no academic issues) or regular without an aide.

The only way to qualify for an aide, through the current IEP system, involves documenting failure to function inside a mainstream classroom.

In other words if the kid isn't throwing chairs, they aren't going to get the help they need, because you need to prove need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that this is not only a thing, but it’s a thing that’s tolerated.

It's been tolerated for a long time. My 20 year old had a 2nd grade class that had a kid like this. Many days they would spend, walking the perimeter of the school property along the fence, while the adults in charge handled the craziness that was happening inside. I don't think he ever had a full week without an afternoon or two of walking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think virtual learning and the parents have to assist is perfectly reasonable. Didn't schools say that they aren't daycare? Maintaining control of tantruming kids = daycare.

Can't you all see from the scores that all students are doing worse year after year. What's changed? The ability of teachers to maintain discipline. They're not allowed to. It's like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we don't let other students have an education because they're constantly being evacuated.

Should parents of deaf kids have to keep them home to read captions on a computer instead of the school providing an interpreter?

C’mon now. You can’t send kids home and make the parents carry out functions that the school is by law supposed to be providing. I’m not saying these kids should be allowed to stay in mainstream classrooms, but the failing is on the schools for not providing the supports needed. If the school needs the labor of the parents to get the kid through the school day, then they should be employing that parent.