Why do we tolerate trash talking and elitism as "boys will be boys" behavior?

[Anonymous]

I read something recently about how this is age appropriate behavior for children who haven't learned other skills yet.

This isn't where we hand wring and say "Woe is the world."

This is where teaching and modeling come in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

I agree and have seen this too. I have 2 girls and my anecdotal observation is that parents seem very quick to discipline their girls vs boys. I don’t get it. Girls (not all but most in my observation) are quick to be kept in check but parents give boys so much leeway for things like screaming, inappropriate or mean language, being physically rough etc. It’s so dispiriting. There seems to be so much coddling of boys vs trying to make girls tough enough to handle those boys.

Yes! Rather than attempt to discipline boys for bad behavior, my DD and her friends were told by the counselors and the assistant principal that they needed to find a way to manage their reactions because that’s just how the boys were going to be.

To the teachers’ credit, they were appalled. But also stuck.

As a 3 girl my mom my next calls would be to the executive principal, the assistant superintendent's office, and the superintendent's office.

The principal's hands might be tied or whatever, but on no account would they be allowed to make my girls think they were the problem.

--3 girl mom

Oh, don’t worry, we escalated after that. And my DD and her 3 friends who were targeted the most will be at another school next year!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS’s friends, including those on his sports team, are not into this. Nice kids.

The girls in my DD’s class? Really awful and they get it from their moms.

So there’s that.

That’s actually really interesting, because in our grade with very badly behaved mean boys, it’s their moms who have the most social capital in the grade and are part of the more pretty/popular/rich parent clique. The moms of girls are more of a mixed group.

It’s almost like it varies across schools, grades and activities. Like making such broad general statements really isn’t useful at all.

Hmmm.

I think what people are saying is that the aggression by boys has escalated beyond what a normal and seems to be sanctioned parents in a way that it wasn’t in the past.

No one is arguing that girls aren’t badly behaved or that some kids are well behaved, just that one end of the bell curve of behavior seems to have changed significantly and for reasons that have to do with people’s specific parenting goals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

Yes and no. I have two boys. Both athletes and good students.

Boys are competitive. They are hard wired for it. But I think parenting and good communities keep them in their lanes. If there are failures, it's usually because the parents suck or there's a bad peer group of poorly parented students.

I came up in the 80s and 90s. We were way worse then this generation of kids. They all seem really nice these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

Not against you. I have the same observations

But why do we not believe boys have an emotional life as well as girls?

Because it's not fostered by their parents or society. My boys have an emotional life, because I'm raising them that way. I see other boys getting the message that aggression = good; empathy = weakness. It's sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

Not against you. I have the same observations

But why do we not believe boys have an emotional life as well as girls?

Because it's not fostered by their parents or society. My boys have an emotional life, because I'm raising them that way. I see other boys getting the message that aggression = good; empathy = weakness. It's sad.

Just because a boy uses anger as a masking emotion over other emotions doesn't mean he doesn't have an emotional life.

I'm female and do this, so I can attest to it. Literally talking about that in therapy the other day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you not attend school? This is something that was happening when I went to elementary school in the late 70's/ early 80's. It most likely has happened for hundreds of years.

This just don’t carpool or better yet homeschool

Sheltering your kids doesn't give them the skills they need to deal with it IRL. Homeschooling for this reason is stupid (there are good reasons to homeschool, but this ain't it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

Yup!

It sucks for the ones they bully and leave out. They don't have bonds

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't found this at all with either my 9 year-old boy or my 11 year-old boy. Their friend groups are really lovely boys and lovely families. Both play sports but neither has an identity formed solely around sports, so maybe that is why. Is it all boys or just a toxic environment around certain sports or activities that you are noticing? I wouldn't paint with too broad a brush.

It usually happens later in middle school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS’s friends, including those on his sports team, are not into this. Nice kids.

The girls in my DD’s class? Really awful and they get it from their moms.

So there’s that.

That’s actually really interesting, because in our grade with very badly behaved mean boys, it’s their moms who have the most social capital in the grade and are part of the more pretty/popular/rich parent clique. The moms of girls are more of a mixed group.

It’s almost like it varies across schools, grades and activities. Like making such broad general statements really isn’t useful at all.

Hmmm.

I think what people are saying is that the aggression by boys has escalated beyond what a normal and seems to be sanctioned parents in a way that it wasn’t in the past.

No one is arguing that girls aren’t badly behaved or that some kids are well behaved, just that one end of the bell curve of behavior seems to have changed significantly and for reasons that have to do with people’s specific parenting goals.

If only we had good role models for the boys to look up to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have four boys and yes, there is something that kind of breaks in them during middle school and remains broken during high school. They sort of seal up emotionally because it's just.not.acceptable. to feel things. It's strange and weird and basically the one thing that sort of opened them up weirdly was dating girls and even then it is sort of screwed up that they rely on them for this solely. Their friends aren't safe spaces.

Keen observation!

Train your son how to be a good friend. I've done that with my sons and daughters. Now, even my boys can give and take empathy from others. And, yes, I do see my DD has male friends that call on her for that type of support because they cannot get it from friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

Yup!

In the same way that mean girls do. It's taught and reinforced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boys bond this way.

You are part of the problem. Please don't reproduce anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of our girls got bullied severely by other girls in grade school. She got pushed up against walls, had her hands stomped on, got bruised and hit. All by other girls. Maybe it's time we start also saying that "girls can be girls".

How about we advocate for parents to teach their kids empathy and good sportsmanship regardless if gender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

Not against you. I have the same observations

But why do we not believe boys have an emotional life as well as girls?

Because it's not fostered by their parents or society. My boys have an emotional life, because I'm raising them that way. I see other boys getting the message that aggression = good; empathy = weakness. It's sad.

And Elon Musk agrees on empthy = weakness.