US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

See, this is a major part of why we have no business getting into war with Russia. Our nation is littered with cretins like you who hallucinate Trump everywhere. I’m a Democrat. A lifelong Democrat. And I don’t think it’s my business to go worrying about people halfway around the world when I share a country with people like you. You’re a much bigger problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much extra would you pay for gas for a few months if it meant saving the lives of 500K to 1 million Ukrainians?

That’s literally the calculus all of you should be considering. Would you pay $6/gallon for the next 6 months if you could save the lives of 300,000 children and their mothers?

Unfortunately, I think most Americans - particularly those who drive a lot - would say “I don’t care, not my problem.” If there’s one thing Americans and Russians have in common is that their elites believe life should be cheap.

I'd make the same sacrifices my grandparents made in WWII.

I think about that a lot. I don't think most Americans are familiar with the sacrifices people made in WWII (other than sending kids off to war). My grandfather ran a gas station during WWII, and my dad collected ration cards. I saw an economist on CNN saying we had to be really careful about some of hte sanctions because of the effect on energy costs, and how they are already high and no one wants to pay more at the pump. And I was thinking "Yeah, people are willing to let Ukrainians die rather than pay more at the pump." To be fair, we weren't willing to pay more at the pump after 9/11, when the Saudi's financed the murder of thousands of Americans. Our dependence on cheap foreign oil has led to a really sad outcomes.
THis is really the time to do it, too -- at least we're not headed into winter when people will need heating oil.

Not just "kids." The average age of an American GI in world war 2 was 26. Many of these men were husbands and fathers. I'm wondering if the pp who is "willing to make the same sacrifice" would be willing to have her SPOUSE go off to war? Give birth on her own? Literally go MONTHS with zero communication with her spouse?

Americans felt the same pre WWII, but soon enough realized they simply did not have a choice. Sleepy Europe understands this now, war and conflict keeps on advancing from the East Westwards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

A nuclear winter that wouldn’t happen if the US and Western Europe didn’t go sticking their noses into a conflict they have no place in and cannot control. The time to do something was before Putin invaded. Having failed to stop him, we need to eat this loss and keep it moving. Anyone who thinks the way to avoid a nuclear war is to attack a country that will not hesitate to use nukes is a damn fool and should be sent to the frontlines to die first.

Putin did this. We didn't. This is the exact same appeasement argument that was made in 1939. Some things are worth fighting for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

Dp- you are very misinformed. Please seek better news sources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Tell me you're a Trumper without saying so.

See, this is a major part of why we have no business getting into war with Russia. Our nation is littered with cretins like you who hallucinate Trump everywhere. I’m a Democrat. A lifelong Democrat. And I don’t think it’s my business to go worrying about people halfway around the world when I share a country with people like you. You’re a much bigger problem.

Dp- it’s understandable that they made an assumption. You are not well informed and have limited understanding of this conflict.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

There's actually been a lot of discussion this past week about how the EU has emerged as a singular power and how Putin was not prepare for that show of unity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

A nuclear winter that wouldn’t happen if the US and Western Europe didn’t go sticking their noses into a conflict they have no place in and cannot control. The time to do something was before Putin invaded. Having failed to stop him, we need to eat this loss and keep it moving. Anyone who thinks the way to avoid a nuclear war is to attack a country that will not hesitate to use nukes is a damn fool and should be sent to the frontlines to die first.

Putin did this. We didn't. This is the exact same appeasement argument that was made in 1939. Some things are worth fighting for.

Hitler didn’t have nukes, you dumbo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

the key word here is *after*. We are in the middle of a war, not after it. If we continue after it ends, that would be bad. But during a war you want us to give up?

Yes. PP does want to give up.

Don’t speak for me please! Just explore all options prior to his inevitable escalation.

Yeah, I crossed a line with my prior post. My apologies.

I don't think the sanctions here are very analogous to the reparations imposed on Germany after World War I for a variety of reasons. But that disagreement doesn't mean that I can read your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

No. We lost ONE solider. One soldier, one naval corpsman, and 11 Marines. The fact that you lumped them all together as "soldiers" shows how little civilians know about the military.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

I mean, historically this is not an outlier opinion. I think we are in an isolationist period in the US right now. Every once in awhile someone pipes up about our exit from Afghanistan, but honestly no one actually cares. It's a political talking point - and we lost 13 soldiers! People are starving to death in Afghanistan right now and we all have collective amnesia that we were there for 20 years.

The US was barely involved in WW I and didn't enter WW II until directly attacked. Strategically, that's probably what allowed the Allies to win, but there was plenty of isolationism in 1939.

I do think we should be concerned that Putin deliberately attacks/provokes NATO once he realizes that NATO and the EU are unilaterally united against him. You should want to sacrifice with high gas prices, etc. to avoid that. Because once that happens, you may well see your spouse or child drafted.

You’re not serious about life. Do you think Putin doesn’t know that NATO and the EU are his mortal enemies already? Literally nothing in your post makes proactively seeking war with Russia remotely sensible. I’m not going to trouble myself about Eastern Europe until there’s a reason to do so.

There's actually been a lot of discussion this past week about how the EU has emerged as a singular power and how Putin was not prepare for that show of unity.

These are bad and stupid analyses. The former head of the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, who was a spy, survived the fall of the soviet union, and has ruled a country as ruthless and cutthroat as Russia for over two decades is somehow not savvy enough to see that Europeans who hate him might together? You’re mistaking him for someone as stupid as you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

the key word here is *after*. We are in the middle of a war, not after it. If we continue after it ends, that would be bad. But during a war you want us to give up?

Yes. PP does want to give up.

Don’t speak for me please! Just explore all options prior to his inevitable escalation.

Yeah, I crossed a line with my prior post. My apologies.

I don't think the sanctions here are very analogous to the reparations imposed on Germany after World War I for a variety of reasons. But that disagreement doesn't mean that I can read your mind.

You all seem to forget that there was an ARMISTICE after WWI. A truce without capitulation. The German people, who were not aware how close Germany had come to defeat, did not feel that they lost, and that was one of the problems, psychologically, that contributed to WWII, because they thought they had been stymied by politicking, and could easily over-run Europe again. Hitler played on that resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

A nuclear winter that wouldn’t happen if the US and Western Europe didn’t go sticking their noses into a conflict they have no place in and cannot control. The time to do something was before Putin invaded. Having failed to stop him, we need to eat this loss and keep it moving. Anyone who thinks the way to avoid a nuclear war is to attack a country that will not hesitate to use nukes is a damn fool and should be sent to the frontlines to die first.

Putin did this. We didn't. This is the exact same appeasement argument that was made in 1939. Some things are worth fighting for.

Americans have been fat and happy and insulated for a long time. They don't understand people like Putin. They think wars happen in far far away places and they get to live in a bubble and watch them on Twitter and the global economy just hums along churning cheap gas.