US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hope Biden announces tonight that we're cutting oil imports and going head-to-head with Russia, WWIII be damned. It's hard for me to imagine that China would intervene on Russia's behalf with almost the entire rest of the world against them. North Korea might, but they'd be erased.

We would expect a lot of pain for a while, but unless someone kills Putin in the near term, we're going to be at serious risk of his instability for a long time.

If Russia relies on China for all trade, it effectively becomes a vassal state. I'm fine with that because China keeps its other vassal in line to some extent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

the key word here is *after*. We are in the middle of a war, not after it. If we continue after it ends, that would be bad. But during a war you want us to give up?

Yes. PP does want to give up.

Don’t speak for me please! Just explore all options prior to his inevitable escalation.

What options are you envisioning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much extra would you pay for gas for a few months if it meant saving the lives of 500K to 1 million Ukrainians?

That’s literally the calculus all of you should be considering. Would you pay $6/gallon for the next 6 months if you could save the lives of 300,000 children and their mothers?

Unfortunately, I think most Americans - particularly those who drive a lot - would say “I don’t care, not my problem.” If there’s one thing Americans and Russians have in common is that their elites believe life should be cheap.

I'd make the same sacrifices my grandparents made in WWII.

I think about that a lot. I don't think most Americans are familiar with the sacrifices people made in WWII (other than sending kids off to war). My grandfather ran a gas station during WWII, and my dad collected ration cards. I saw an economist on CNN saying we had to be really careful about some of hte sanctions because of the effect on energy costs, and how they are already high and no one wants to pay more at the pump. And I was thinking "Yeah, people are willing to let Ukrainians die rather than pay more at the pump." To be fair, we weren't willing to pay more at the pump after 9/11, when the Saudi's financed the murder of thousands of Americans. Our dependence on cheap foreign oil has led to a really sad outcomes.
THis is really the time to do it, too -- at least we're not headed into winter when people will need heating oil.

Not just "kids." The average age of an American GI in world war 2 was 26. Many of these men were husbands and fathers. I'm wondering if the pp who is "willing to make the same sacrifice" would be willing to have her SPOUSE go off to war? Give birth on her own? Literally go MONTHS with zero communication with her spouse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

Well, this interview with Fiona Hill (which everyone should read) will not make you feel any better:

She makes very stupid points. For instance:

<< “Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just between democracies and autocracies but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force,” Hill said. “Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this.”>>

Is she kidding me? The West has never stopped taking things from developing nations by force and by making up pretexts to plunder non-white nations’ resources. Name a single country in Africa that is paid a fair amount for any of it resources. This whole Ukraine situation is nothing but white people talking about how they want to maintain a world order in which they and their white supremacist homeland, Europe, are safe from what they inflict on others. Personally, I find myself rooting for Putin to take it all down. Welcome to the real world, friends!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

the key word here is *after*. We are in the middle of a war, not after it. If we continue after it ends, that would be bad. But during a war you want us to give up?

Yes. PP does want to give up.

Don’t speak for me please! Just explore all options prior to his inevitable escalation.

What options are you envisioning?

There were diplomatic negotiations for months leading up to the invasion. The only way to deescalate, would be to let Putin do whatever he wants for the next decade or so until he croaks, and then hope that his replacement isn't as unhinged and trigger happy. And how much of Eastern Europe will he have eaten up by then?

[Anonymous]

I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These stiff sanctions and total exclusion of Russia are worrying me. I think they will push Putin over the edge. Similar to how Hitler and Germany were punished after WWI. And the way Hitler reacted. Scary stuff.

Well, this interview with Fiona Hill (which everyone should read) will not make you feel any better:

She makes very stupid points. For instance:

<< “Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just between democracies and autocracies but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force,” Hill said. “Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this.”>>

Is she kidding me? The West has never stopped taking things from developing nations by force and by making up pretexts to plunder non-white nations’ resources. Name a single country in Africa that is paid a fair amount for any of it resources. This whole Ukraine situation is nothing but white people talking about how they want to maintain a world order in which they and their white supremacist homeland, Europe, are safe from what they inflict on others. Personally, I find myself rooting for Putin to take it all down. Welcome to the real world, friends!

So then you literally admit to wanting to destroy western civilization. Why would we support any of your opinions when you are our enemy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

Enjoy your upcoming nuclear winter.

A nuclear winter that wouldn’t happen if the US and Western Europe didn’t go sticking their noses into a conflict they have no place in and cannot control. The time to do something was before Putin invaded. Having failed to stop him, we need to eat this loss and keep it moving. Anyone who thinks the way to avoid a nuclear war is to attack a country that will not hesitate to use nukes is a damn fool and should be sent to the frontlines to die first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How much extra would you pay for gas for a few months if it meant saving the lives of 500K to 1 million Ukrainians?

That’s literally the calculus all of you should be considering. Would you pay $6/gallon for the next 6 months if you could save the lives of 300,000 children and their mothers?

Unfortunately, I think most Americans - particularly those who drive a lot - would say “I don’t care, not my problem.” If there’s one thing Americans and Russians have in common is that their elites believe life should be cheap.

Exactly. I'm French, we rely on Russian gas and petrol to the tune of 13 and 17 percent of our total consumption, which isn't much compared to other European countries, such as Germany, are much more reliant on Russian energy. For Europe to stop buying from Russia would be DEVASTATING to our economies...


... unless OPEC helps us out. So far they've been unwilling to do so. Can the USA help us negotiate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m absolutely not willing to make very many sacrifices for Ukraine. I don’t want to pay more than I already do for anything and I damn sure don’t want my husband going to war nor do I want my life upended to make shit in factories for a war effort. Ukraine and Russia aren’t my problem just as I’m not theirs. I don’t feel bad about this either.

One of the downsides of the long involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is that some Americans have no stomach for engagement or involvement even when there are legitimate threats. I'm curious whether anything other than a direct attack on your neighborhood would be your problem or worth any sacrifice.

PP here. I’m not up to dying or suffering a significant downturn in fortunes because of “moral” bullshit that’s not even clear cut. People die every day and many, many regions of the world are at war at any given time. I don’t know what makes the people of Ukraine more valuable and special than people elsewhere. Unless the case can be made that America has been directly and immediately threatened, we have no business going to war and need to mind our own freaking beeswax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw the article the other day about the Ukrainian pilots picking up the donated fighter jets in Poland. Can anyone explain to me why their first stop wasn't to bomb the crap out of that slow-moving convoy headed to Kyiiv?

I'm really appreciative of the people with military understanding that have been explaining some of this stuff.

Also a little surprised that the Ukrianians aren't fashioning more IEDs -- I thought that was pretty easy tech now, and was used so heavily in the Middle East. If they lined the road with a bunch of those they might be able to at least slow down the convoy, no?

With all this talk and no action about the convoy, I'm worried that those trucks and tanks could contain gases/chemicals/bombs that would devastate the country and beyond if it were bombed.
Cratering the road in front of it could at the very least slow it down further.

The convoy is a trap and a distraction. It's probably very well protected from the air and the ground. I think they are going to let it roll in to more dense urban areas and have at it then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Biden announces tonight that we're cutting oil imports and going head-to-head with Russia, WWIII be damned. It's hard for me to imagine that China would intervene on Russia's behalf with almost the entire rest of the world against them. North Korea might, but they'd be erased.

We would expect a lot of pain for a while, but unless someone kills Putin in the near term, we're going to be at serious risk of his instability for a long time.

If Russia relies on China for all trade, it effectively becomes a vassal state. I'm fine with that because China keeps its other vassal in line to some extent.

I’m ok with that as well.

Han Chinese are excellent administrators of their underlings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much extra would you pay for gas for a few months if it meant saving the lives of 500K to 1 million Ukrainians?

That’s literally the calculus all of you should be considering. Would you pay $6/gallon for the next 6 months if you could save the lives of 300,000 children and their mothers?

Unfortunately, I think most Americans - particularly those who drive a lot - would say “I don’t care, not my problem.” If there’s one thing Americans and Russians have in common is that their elites believe life should be cheap.

Exactly. I'm French, we rely on Russian gas and petrol to the tune of 13 and 17 percent of our total consumption, which isn't much compared to other European countries, such as Germany, are much more reliant on Russian energy. For Europe to stop buying from Russia would be DEVASTATING to our economies...


... unless OPEC helps us out. So far they've been unwilling to do so. Can the USA help us negotiate?

If anything, OPEC should raise its prices. Capitalism cuts both ways. You profiteer from other people’s calamities and other people profiteer from your calamities.