Indiana's Religious Freedom law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pizza place forced to shut down by liberals. They are just a mom and pop place, looks like they are out of business for good.

Capitalism.

Actually it is bullying activism is picketing abortion clinics capitalism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in the midst of it all Indiana...moving to Virginia this summer.

It's worse here....these people are insane. Can't wait to leave. If you are in Northern VA, you are actually moving to Central America. Be warned.

But we're not racists!

You'll become one when forced to pay for it all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why I opened this thread. What a bunch of immature weirdos. Thought about contributing to the discussion but then decided that five minutes would be better spent elsewhere....

Yep. I am finding this true more and more on this forum.
Uninformed, intolerant people who simply rant. No discussion. Just rant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why I opened this thread. What a bunch of immature weirdos. Thought about contributing to the discussion but then decided that five minutes would be better spent elsewhere....

Yep. I am finding this true more and more on this forum.
Uninformed, intolerant people who simply rant. No discussion. Just rant.

Well, be the guiding light and provide an example of a discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because the gay bakery/Christian cake issue was a set-up , i.e. a man posing as a Christian conservative went to gay bakers and asked them to make such a cake, And video'd the responses. Trust me, those responses got absolutely vicious. And they refused to make the cake. Funny how it works when the tables are turned.

So you are making a distinction because you don't like the idea of a cake saying something like "I don't support gay marriage", saying the gay baker should not be made to create that, because to you, it's some form of discriminatory hate speech. That's a complete red herring. I mean, it's just a cake. In truth, they are both just cakes.. So if the Christian baker must make the gay couple's cake, the gay baker also bakes cakes for a living, so he should made to bake it and write what the Christians want on it, especially if it's a Christian activists' wedding, and that's what they want on their cake. Or maybe even the words "Marriage is between a man and a woman". The gay baker should be forced to make it because he bakes cakes for a living, just like the Christian baker

I do draw a distinction when there are words on the cake, because many businesses which print messages will refuse to print highly offensive messages, not because they are discriminating against any protected group, but rather because the particular message is highly offensive. For example, I suspect most bakers (gay or straight) would refuse to make a cake that reads "I like to rape children" or "hitler was right." When you put an offensive message on the cake, it's a individual item and sort of like forced speech. I saw the videos you're talking about, and there was even one from Oregon. In that one, the gay baker offered to make the cake, and sell the icing to the customer so he could write the words himself; she just didn't want to write the words. Seems pretty reasonable to me. To flip the situation, if a gay couple came to a Christian baker asking for a cake shaped like two big penises and the words "I like cock," I'd agree with you that the baker could refuse. But if it's just a basic ordinary wedding cake,there's no basis to refuse without violating the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in the midst of it all Indiana...moving to Virginia this summer.

It's worse here....these people are insane. Can't wait to leave. If you are in Northern VA, you are actually moving to Central America. Be warned.

But we're not racists!

You'll become one when forced to pay for it all

Clearly you are ahead of the curve.

[Anonymous]

The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

Angie's list killed a 40 million dollar project. Salesforce.com is handing out relocation packages to employees who no longer want to live in Indiana. 50K a pop. Michelle Malkin's measly $500 is nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are liberal and claim to be a Christian you mean to tell me you rank your liberal values higher than your Christian values? Liberalism trumps Christianity. Got it. You can't pick and choose what to believe in the Bible, it doesn't work that way.

Don't go to church anymore, for you are a fraud. How many liberals actually even believe in Christianity anyway. I've heard liberals called godless but I've never checked the stats on that.

I am the son of a pastor and consider myself a Christian and a political Moderate. EVERY single Christian picks and chooses what to believe. Every single one! There are verses in the New Testament about the use of violence, accumulation of wealth, and religion in politics. Christians follow them at their leisure. In the Old Testament, there are numerous dietary and grooming restrictions that most Christians do not follow. And in Leviticus, the book most quoted by anti-Gay Christians, there is also a verse about immigration and not vexing foreigners in your land. Funny how that is ignored be certain people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure they do. Otherwise they would they would not be essentially crucifying Christians for exercising their religious rights. Again, the Oregon bakery did not turn down the business of the gay couple. They shopped there previously and were never turned down. They were only turned down when asked for a specialty item for their wedding. The gay bakery that turned down the Christian baker wanting an anti-gay cake did the exact same thing. You just feel that their message was more hateful. You know DAMN well that if a gay baker in Oregon turned down a cake for a patron that said "Gay Marriage Is Wrong", the lefties like you would be all over it as a hateful message. And the courts would likely agree with you. That's the double-standard today. The court in Oregon, in my opinion was wrong in their decision.

The big difference is that the Oregon bakery was asked to provide the exact same cake -- a wedding cake -- but it refused only when the couple getting married was a lesbian couple. So it's clear there was a double standard at work. In your "gay baker" hypothetical, the situation is lots murkier because you're talking about an individualized message on the cake ("gay marriage is wrong"). I address this situation on the other thread at page 6 at 6:29 (http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/460001.page). If your "gay baker" hypothetical was a true apples-to-apples parallel -- where the gay baker simply refused to serve any cake at all to the Christian buyer -- I'd totally agree with you that the gay baker would be violating the anti-discrimination law.

You are simply picking and choosing what you like and what you don't like The cakes in both cases are the exact same cakes. So either both bakeries follow the rules or neither. Both bakeries were willing to serve both patrons. It was the special orders that were the problem. Directly parallel.

Really? Show me where the Oregon bakery was asked to make a cake with the message "support gap marriage" written on it. I've read several articles now, and haven't seen anything suggesting that.

Isn't baking a cake specifically for a gay wedding, supporting gay marriage? In the eyes of the Christian it is. See, that's the thing about religious freedom. You don't get to tell Christians how to believe. If you want that, then they get to tell you how to believe too. And that means you have to make a cake that says that you don't support gay marriage for a Christian event. That's called true equality.

Is baking a cake for a Muslim wedding supporting Islam? In the eyes of this Christian, it is not.

And btw I sincerely doubt they made the baker write "I am the baker and I support gay marriage" on the cake. Have you ever even seen writing on a wedding cake? It's all fondant and flowers. Hardly a political statement.

I think you have that backwards. A baker who follows Sharia law would probably not bake a cake for a Christian wedding. But that would be OK with you. Just not the other way around. I don't believe there is anything the bible that forbids a marriage between a man and a woman, Muslim, Jewish, or whatever. That said, I would not go to a Christian baker as a Jew and ask him to bake a religious cake, then sue if he refused. I'd go to a Jewish baker, because, well, I'm interested in a cake, not in screwing people over to get activism points.

The point is by baking the wedding cake, by photographing the wedding, by doing the wedding flowers, you are a participant in the wedding. You should have a choice to say 'no thank you', especially since the 1st amendment grants that right.

If you personally are baking a cake/photographing the wedding/doing the flowers, you personally are a participant in the wedding, with all your attendant rights and liberties to be anti-gay (or "just" anti-gay-marriage). If your BUSINESS provides cakes/photography services/floral arrangements for weddings, then you have to provide your services without discriminating.

You are not your business, people. This isn't that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are liberal and claim to be a Christian you mean to tell me you rank your liberal values higher than your Christian values? Liberalism trumps Christianity. Got it. You can't pick and choose what to believe in the Bible, it doesn't work that way.

Don't go to church anymore, for you are a fraud. How many liberals actually even believe in Christianity anyway. I've heard liberals called godless but I've never checked the stats on that.

I am the son of a pastor and consider myself a Christian and a political Moderate. EVERY single Christian picks and chooses what to believe. Every single one! There are verses in the New Testament about the use of violence, accumulation of wealth, and religion in politics. Christians follow them at their leisure. In the Old Testament, there are numerous dietary and grooming restrictions that most Christians do not follow. And in Leviticus, the book most quoted by anti-Gay Christians, there is also a verse about immigration and not vexing foreigners in your land. Funny how that is ignored be certain people.

Professional football alone violates several provisions outlined in Leviticus. Clothing of different fabrics, unclean women (periods), plus the dietary restrictions you mentioned. Homophobes selectively pick verses to support their position. Of course, it is their right to do so. But it doesn't mean they aren't hypocrites and that discriminatory behavior shouldn't be tolerated by secular law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

The donations have shot up very quickly from 72,000 to almost 100,000. It's really gaining steam now.

The owners are in hiding and say are indeed very concerned about re-opening.

The donation page has posts that can be made and very many are posting their displeasure with the pizza owners receiving donations. I've only read a tiny fraction of the posts but I recall last night seeing one that sounded threatening and angry saying the pizza owners will never be allowed to run a pizza business or any other kind of business anywhere ever again. The person typed it in capital letters at the end. There is another poster who is making up vicious lies and posting constantly this morning. he posts are coming in rapidly at the fund site.

I would be afraid. I don't want to be working and someone throw a brick through the window and hit one of us with it. They have received many death threats and the posts I'm seeing indicate there are many people highly pissed. I also see people continuing to think the pizza place said they don't serve gays period. That's not what they said at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

I am the PP. Yes, what you describe as "the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else" is exactly what I mean when I write that "his local business reputation was trashed." My description is admittedly more pithy and less specific than yours. FWIW, I'm fine with how that works out too. The law sets rules to deter discrimination, but the most simple rule of business is "If you act like a discriminatory asshole, people will quit buying your stuff."