Indiana's Religious Freedom law

[Anonymous]

The law thinks people should have a right to practice their religion freely or associate with others freely without government interference. These are any person's most basic rights in a civil society.

Any PERSON's most basic right.

All bets are off when that PERSON opens a BUSINESS.

[Anonymous]

Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Then why is the EEOC suing a company that fired Muslims who refused to deliver alcohol, which was part of their job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

If conservatives had not opposed gay rights every step of the way, I might believe this. But I remember the history. And so I don't believe you one bit.

What you believe or feel makes no difference. Stop confusing feelings with law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

Yes, indeed it is. One is being forced to create a special order for an event they feel is morally wrong. The key here is special order. You are forcing labor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

Convents and orthodox Jewish schools are religious institutions, not businesses, and as such their treatment by laws such as these is very, very different. You could do us all a favor by reading the entire thread so you actually have somewhat of a clue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

Convents and orthodox Jewish schools are religious institutions, not businesses, and as such their treatment by laws such as these is very, very different. You could do us all a favor by reading the entire thread so you actually have somewhat of a clue.

The Constitution is a document of individual rights, not group rights. Therefore, the right to religious freedom is granted to the individual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

Convents and orthodox Jewish schools are religious institutions, not businesses, and as such their treatment by laws such as these is very, very different. You could do us all a favor by reading the entire thread so you actually have somewhat of a clue.

The Constitution is a document of individual rights, not group rights. Therefore, the right to religious freedom is granted to the individual.

Uh, no. You really don't know what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Then why is the EEOC suing a company that fired Muslims who refused to deliver alcohol, which was part of their job?

Not familiar with the case you are referencing. But I'd want to know the full scope of the job, and whether the company could have reasonably accommodated the Muslim's objections.

If it's a booze delivery company, not a reasonable accommodation.

If it's a general delivery company, with many drivers, and only some alcohol related deliveries, and the company refused to attempt to accommodate the religious objection, I can see where the EEOC would get involved.

- HR

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Then why is the EEOC suing a company that fired Muslims who refused to deliver alcohol, which was part of their job?

Don't know the case, but the company itself may not be a religious business. Whether employees are religious is irrelevant. The business has to be religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

Convents and orthodox Jewish schools are religious institutions, not businesses, and as such their treatment by laws such as these is very, very different. You could do us all a favor by reading the entire thread so you actually have somewhat of a clue.

Call them institutions then. It doesn't change the fact that they have a right to discriminate under the Freedom of Religion clause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really, not if the business is a religious one. There are convents. Must they be forced to admit lesbians? There are christian t-shirt companies that only have christian themed shirts? Must they now be forced to print rainbow gay pride tshirts? There are orthodox jewish schools. Should they be forced to enroll gay students? How about Muslim sisters associations? Should they be forced to admit lesbians? Any organ or business that is founded on religious principles or principles that simply rejects homosexuals can not be forced to change because of what YOU think is fair or just.

Your idea that homosexuality is fine can not trump any group or organization's right to reject it...SO LONG AS that its truly an organization or business founded on such beliefs.

Convents and orthodox Jewish schools are religious institutions, not businesses, and as such their treatment by laws such as these is very, very different. You could do us all a favor by reading the entire thread so you actually have somewhat of a clue.

The Constitution is a document of individual rights, not group rights. Therefore, the right to religious freedom is granted to the individual.

Uh, no. You really don't know what you are talking about.

You're right, he doesn't. Look here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/09/how-serious-is-the-supreme-court-serious-about-religious-freedom/380617/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Then why is the EEOC suing a company that fired Muslims who refused to deliver alcohol, which was part of their job?

Don't know the case, but the company itself may not be a religious business. Whether employees are religious is irrelevant. The business has to be religious.

Sorry I misunderstood. Thought you were asking if the company could be forced to deliver alcohol.

The EEOC would determine if it was unduly burdensome to exempt these employees from delivering alcohol. If alcohol delivery was a significant part of their business and it would be hard to find delivery people to assume those specific deliveries, then its not discriminatory to ask them to deliver it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Then why is the EEOC suing a company that fired Muslims who refused to deliver alcohol, which was part of their job?

Don't know the case, but the company itself may not be a religious business. Whether employees are religious is irrelevant. The business has to be religious.

Sorry I misunderstood. Thought you were asking if the company could be forced to deliver alcohol.

The EEOC would determine if it was unduly burdensome to exempt these employees from delivering alcohol. If alcohol delivery was a significant part of their business and it would be hard to find delivery people to assume those specific deliveries, then its not discriminatory to ask them to deliver it.

The company is a general purpose transportation company operating 400 tractor trailers out of Morton Illinois. It is family owned. This isn't your local beer distributor.

[Anonymous]

Pharmacist refuses to give a woman who had already had a miscarriage her doctor-prescribed meds:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/04/13/walmart-pharmacist-refuses-to-fill-prescription-for-miscarriage-patient-citing-conscience-clause/