How often do you think applicants lie about their race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

So:
1) 300 African Americans at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished than anyone else in the country?
2) And if yes, why have their historic stats continued to show standardized test scores approximately 200 points lower on average than Whites and Asians?

I think you meant that SOME of the AA applicants are just as accomplished as other applicants, but not on average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

Multipled times every top level school, which will cascade down the rankings. There really aren't millions of highly qualified students. It will make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This forum is way too consumed about race.

lol everything in America now (not just education but politics economics culture etc) is 100% all about race now. It’s exhausting!

you're "exhausted" hearing about race and racism, imagine actually have to be on the receiving end of it for your entire life, and daily in the form of micro-agression. we'd pick having to "hear discussions" any day! you guys are a trip! lol

I’m not white or East Asian and it is exhausting hearing about race In the us

Is europe more racist than the us - yeah, but honestly I prefer it to the racial discourse in the us

College admissions is more meritocratic, less violence, better food supply and trains

I am ok with the trade off that europe is too racist to ever elect a kid that looks like me as prime minister

In the us, the 24/7 racial discourse is a scam to distract people from the other issues

Europe doesn't have the same dialogue because they didn't import Black people, subjegate and enslave them, deny them rights for decades and continue to treat them like crap despite the fact their ancestors built the nation, literally, especially in the South. So Europe will NEVER Compare. The non-dominant race people in Europe have less "claim" and rights as Blacks and indegnous people who were literally slaughtered and forced to live on reservations. The history of racism is baked into the fabric of American soil and for that reason, it will always be an issue here. Also, in Europe, their brand of racism isn't as instiutitonalized and integrated as it is here in America.

Further, I dont' know about you but most people can pay attention to more than one thing at a time.

New poster--

No, Europe did not have slavery to the extent and duration the US did. They just colonized African countries and subjugated black people there.

Second, Europeans were very happy to enslave those black people and bring them to both North and South America to do as other Europeans wished.

Third, I'm not so sure racism in Europe is as benign as you think. Many countries just haven't the opportunity to interact with blacks that would lead the ignorant to develop an opinion. It will never be the same as racism in the US, but it's looking like it will be plenty ugly as those opportunities grow.

Finally, neither the US nor Europe can hold a candle to Asia when it comes to racism. No enslavement of other races, but most countries there won't even let other Asians whose families haven't been in their country for generations hold any positions of importance, let alone consider blacks, whites, etc. fit to be considered equals in society.

My kids didn’t own slaves. My ancestors were poor immigrants from Italy and Ireland who faced huge amounts of discrimination when they arrived in the US.

So why are they looked at less favorably in the admissions office exactly?

Because race matters more than socioeconomic hardships in AOs/colleges. It's why a very rich and privileged hispanic or AA student is considered more preferential than a poor white kid. They tried to capture it with FirstGEn, but a lot of these households have a parent that attended some form of college, e.g., not first Gen. So the hispanic or AA kids that attend a ritzy private school and have doctors for parents are looked more preferentially than the kid coming out of a low-class white background with one working mother that has a degree.

We are talking about elite schools that have always serviced the elite. That's what the suburban magnet parents don't seem to understand. Wealthy, private school educated minorites, get a leg up just like wealthy whites doing the same[b]. Filling out a class with Kushners is better than more CS/engineering students who will one day earn a comfortable wage at Northrup. If AA goes away, this won't change. But, how is this unexpected?

And in that bolded subset, the minorities get the edge too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

Multipled times every top level school, which will cascade down the rankings. There really aren't millions of highly qualified students. It will make a difference.

No it won’t. Do the math, especially if you are talking about the top 20 schools. According to Common App report 76,000+ students applied to college with SAT scores greater than 1500. The majority of those applicants applied to highly selective schools and public flagships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Always check black. There's literally nothing they can do. It's not a crime. You can IDENTIFY with whatever you want. An actual crime is if you were to try to scam financial aid.

It's not a crime, but it doesn't have to be for your admission to be rescinded or for you to be kicked out once you're there.

Which students will they kick out?

75% black?
50% black?
25% black?
15% black?
5% black?

Huh? I was commenting on those who lie.

So someone who is 5% black can claim to be black?

Yes, if that is how they identify. We do not question it.

If you are 95% black, can you claim to be white?

I do remember sometime in the 1990s, a district in Maryland - Prince George's, maybe? - was allowing transfers to a school, but only for white people, because of racial balance reasons. A lady was quoted as saying she went in, slammed her hands on the counter, and told them her baby was white. They said OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

DP. Why does the discussion get to be about 'society' from your perspective and 'my kid' from my perspective? All we want is fairness. Does anyone deny the historic injustice to Blacks and Native Americans? Absolutely not! Should we expect Institutions to set aside a certain portion of their seats/opportunities for those groups? Absolutely! Let's legalize that and establish a percentage. Let's also define when that will stop (maybe after one generation goes to college? maybe after a generation hits an income threshold?). What bothers us is this nebulous, 'universities know best' attitude, especially when I'm subsidizing their existence through tax breaks. Sure, my kid may not smart enough to get into Harvard (he actually is not smart enough), but that's not the point. How do I, the subsidizer of those institutions, get to be sure that the kid who did get in IS indeed more deserving of that opportunity, based on my terms (since, you know, I subsidize their existence)?

Just do away with all non-profit status then. The extent to which you are subsidizing a given college is minimal, and nothing compared to some of the other loons like churches who behave badly while getting a tax write-off.

Absolutely! Tax mooching should be time limited. If your 'charitable cause' can't figure out how to sustain after 5 years, shut it down. As for taxes, colleges, if forced to pay tax, will have to shell out billions to the federal, state and local governments. Billions!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

So:
1) 300 African Americans at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished than anyone else in the country?
2) And if yes, why have their historic stats continued to show standardized test scores approximately 200 points lower on average than Whites and Asians?

I think you meant that SOME of the AA applicants are just as accomplished as other applicants, but not on average.

So you're going to make that controversial?!? I did not say 300 more accomplished than anyone on earth, I said 300 more accomplished than your DC (and the DCs of anyone else bellyaching on this thread). That may or not be the 300 individuals actually in this years freshman class (maybe it is only 160, as the PP states). But there's no statistical way there aren't 300 AA students in the US more capable than your DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

Multipled times every top level school, which will cascade down the rankings. There really aren't millions of highly qualified students. It will make a difference.

No it won’t. Do the math, especially if you are talking about the top 20 schools. According to Common App report 76,000+ students applied to college with SAT scores greater than 1500. The majority of those applicants applied to highly selective schools and public flagships.

+1, there will be no noticeable effect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

NP: There are approximately 160 AA kids in the Harvard freshman class. According to the Students for Fair Admissions brief, the number of AA students would decrease by 50%. Net gain for non-URM applicants would be 80 seats. I don't agree with discrimination against Asian American students but many of the parents on this thread will be disappointed when their kids don't see any differences in acceptance rates after affirmative action.

Multipled times every top level school, which will cascade down the rankings. There really aren't millions of highly qualified students. It will make a difference.

No it won’t. Do the math, especially if you are talking about the top 20 schools. According to Common App report 76,000+ students applied to college with SAT scores greater than 1500. The majority of those applicants applied to highly selective schools and public flagships.

+1, there will be no noticeable effect.

Harvard’s acceptance rate will still be under 5%. All of the T50 schools will still be highly selective. I would argue it will be worse because if affirmative action ends, which I think it will, TO at elite schools will be here to stay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

So:
1) 300 African Americans at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished than anyone else in the country?
2) And if yes, why have their historic stats continued to show standardized test scores approximately 200 points lower on average than Whites and Asians?

I think you meant that SOME of the AA applicants are just as accomplished as other applicants, but not on average.

Since their inception almost a century ago, the tests have been instruments of racism and a biased system. Decades of research demonstrate that Black students ,experience bias from standardized tests administered from early childhood through college.

"We still think there’s something wrong with the kids rather than recognizing their something wrong with the tests," Ibram X. Kendi of the Antiracist Research & Policy Center at Boston University and author of How to be an Antiracist said in October 2020. "Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon ever devised to objectively degrade Black and Brown minds and legally exclude their bodies from prestigious schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

"If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians."

So what you propose we do is change it so that admission practices instead have a disproportionately adverse effect on blacks? Despite the Civil Rights Act, blacks have been stuck with sub-par educational opportunities for centuries when compared to other races. The likelihood that an extremely capable black student won't have access to a superior high school education (and before) is significantly higher than it is for other races. So you want to base college admission solely on numbers and not take any of that into account?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

"Racism against one race in order to help another race is not racism, ackshually." WTF, do you even believe this illogical nonsense? Sad to say you probably do.

And oh by the way, in college admissions, they are very clearly deliberately excluding Asians. They know they're doing it, and they are busy inventing specious justifications for it - much as you are doing here.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

LOL do you realize you just entirely destroyed the basis for affirmative action? If it doesn't do anyone harm not to be admitted to a selective college, then that precise logic certainly applies to African-Americans. They can go to a less-selective college and get the education they need. They'll do fine, right? Oh wait, you meant that it's only the Asians who have to suck it up and go to a lesser college? Hmmm I dare say the Asians might not agree with that racist idea.

Your definition of 'racism' is not accurate, so there's no point in arguing with you.

You are correct that blacks can be just as successful going to a less selective school and that the elimination of AA will thus not do them harm, but that's not the point. Harvard and all the other highly selective colleges believe they can deliver a better education to their students by having a balanced student body with a wide diversity of experiences, and my opinion is that they should be allowed to choose who they admit with that goal guiding their process. If that means including some people because their race has led to their not having had the same privileges as others, it should be allowed. I understand that SCOTUS may disagree.

You seem unlikely to believe me, but I value what people of all backgrounds have to offer to our world.

Your nasty tone is not one I want to interact with any more beyond this post.

DP. A private enterprise should be allowed to do what they want.. e.g. Deny making you a cake because they don't like something about you, admit who they want because they feel like it, etc. However, to qualify as such an enterprise, you should also be paying your dues, for example, taxes. All of these 'non profit' institutions are mooching off my $. I subsidize them and therefore I absolutely get to have a say in what they do and how they go about doing it. Don't like it, go 'For Profit', pay full taxes. Be a 'man'!

What makes you think that the other millions of people whose tax dollars go to subsidizing education agree with your opinion? Should we have a committee with representation for all taxpayers overseeing the admission process, telling them how to make their decisions? I'll let you take charge of that endeavor.