The helicopter parents won - a look back

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all about inner drive. Full stop.
Beyond that, if you do happen to have a genuinely driven kid it is a parents' core responsibility to support them in time, money and encouragement to fulfill their potential.

Rationalize as many do, but any parent who does not do so has seriously done a disservice to their child.

My husband loves tennis. He never had formal tennis lessons. He did make his high school tennis team. He would never make the team around here but back in the early nineties, being athletic and able to hit a tennis ball was enough.

My kids have played tennis since preschool. They played daily during Covid. We have the resources to provide them with the right coaching. A kid who is playing for fun has no chance against my kid who has played almost every day since being able to hold a racquet.

And who really cares? The commodification of sports/intense focus on success in sports as the end is doing more harm than good for your kids. They're burning out, getting injured, suffering mental health, and parents are overspending chasing the delusion that they can mold their kid into a athlete when the ultimate goal should be enjoying the process of sports. Your unathletic but well coached tennis player is not going to play in the U.S. Open and it's weird and unhinged to compare him to a casual for parental bragging rights

DP but what about PPs kid suggested they were "unathletic" seems like you're just looking to be a jerk. Do you have any data to support that student athletes are in worse shape mentally and physically compared to the non-student athletes? I haven't heard of a kid on the tennis team shooting up a school recently, have you?

Oh, and if their kid was really athletic, they wouldn't have compared them (as a player that plays everyday) to a kid that plays casually. Athletes (and their parents) don't typically compare themselves to casuals... it's the other way around.

This

I believe that PPs point was that sheer talent without the effort doesn't mean you can up and beat a kid at tennis who has been working hard even if they are marginally talented. That's the whole point of Gladwell's Outliers. Practice takes you from good to great, but you won't ever be great without the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all about inner drive. Full stop.
Beyond that, if you do happen to have a genuinely driven kid it is a parents' core responsibility to support them in time, money and encouragement to fulfill their potential.

Rationalize as many do, but any parent who does not do so has seriously done a disservice to their child.

My husband loves tennis. He never had formal tennis lessons. He did make his high school tennis team. He would never make the team around here but back in the early nineties, being athletic and able to hit a tennis ball was enough.

My kids have played tennis since preschool. They played daily during Covid. We have the resources to provide them with the right coaching. A kid who is playing for fun has no chance against my kid who has played almost every day since being able to hold a racquet.

And who really cares? The commodification of sports/intense focus on success in sports as the end is doing more harm than good for your kids. They're burning out, getting injured, suffering mental health, and parents are overspending chasing the delusion that they can mold their kid into an athlete when the ultimate goal should be enjoying the process of sports. Your unathletic but well coached tennis player is not going to play in the U.S. Open and it's weird and unhinged to compare him to a casual for parental bragging rights

Truth right here

It sounds like a defeatist sad sack mentality. Your kid will never be good so why bother even trying? But, how would you know without trying? There are so many good life lessons in the process. Why would you discourage a kid from trying their best, setting goals, challenging themselves? What's the alternative? Sounds like it's doing nothing and just hating on everyone else.

There's a huge difference between pushing a kid to try their best as a process to develop the kids and teach them life lessons vs pushing a kid beyond what's reasonable/healthy so they can reach a pie in the sky elitist goal. This whole conversation started with an OP lamenting that their seemingly well-adjusted, healthy and happy kids enjoyed a peaceful life and got into good schools but not ivies or aren't playing on scholarship. It's borderline sickness to be disappointed in your child if they don't achieve a status that's reserved for approximately 1-2% of the population.

We had a different read on the OP. OP seemed to think by casually playing rec you could walk onto the baseball team in high school. Turns out that wasn't the case. And then you're taking it to the furthest extreme to mean that OP expected a D1 baseball scholarship by forcing them through all available means to do something they hated and had no talent for. Plenty of kids play youth sports and are happy doing it beyond a rec level without their parents forcing them or having a sickness. There's a whole middle ground between doing nothing and expecting to be elite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all about inner drive. Full stop.
Beyond that, if you do happen to have a genuinely driven kid it is a parents' core responsibility to support them in time, money and encouragement to fulfill their potential.

Rationalize as many do, but any parent who does not do so has seriously done a disservice to their child.

My husband loves tennis. He never had formal tennis lessons. He did make his high school tennis team. He would never make the team around here but back in the early nineties, being athletic and able to hit a tennis ball was enough.

My kids have played tennis since preschool. They played daily during Covid. We have the resources to provide them with the right coaching. A kid who is playing for fun has no chance against my kid who has played almost every day since being able to hold a racquet.

And who really cares? The commodification of sports/intense focus on success in sports as the end is doing more harm than good for your kids. They're burning out, getting injured, suffering mental health, and parents are overspending chasing the delusion that they can mold their kid into a athlete when the ultimate goal should be enjoying the process of sports. Your unathletic but well coached tennis player is not going to play in the U.S. Open and it's weird and unhinged to compare him to a casual for parental bragging rights

DP but what about PPs kid suggested they were "unathletic" seems like you're just looking to be a jerk. Do you have any data to support that student athletes are in worse shape mentally and physically compared to the non-student athletes? I haven't heard of a kid on the tennis team shooting up a school recently, have you?

Oh, and if their kid was really athletic, they wouldn't have compared them (as a player that plays everyday) to a kid that plays casually. Athletes (and their parents) don't typically compare themselves to casuals... it's the other way around.

If you actually had facts you would share them instead of spouting your opinions.

I don't typically respond to statements like that when the issue is easily searchable but here is one article about the increase injuries of youth athletes

https://www.uclahealth.org/news/injuries-among-youth-athletes-are-on-the-rise-but-why

As far as athletes comparing themselves to casuals, I'll rely on a lifetime of being an athlete and working with athletes to know what conversations do and don't take place. But no elite athlete has prided themselves on beating the random Joe at the Y

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all about inner drive. Full stop.
Beyond that, if you do happen to have a genuinely driven kid it is a parents' core responsibility to support them in time, money and encouragement to fulfill their potential.

Rationalize as many do, but any parent who does not do so has seriously done a disservice to their child.

My husband loves tennis. He never had formal tennis lessons. He did make his high school tennis team. He would never make the team around here but back in the early nineties, being athletic and able to hit a tennis ball was enough.

My kids have played tennis since preschool. They played daily during Covid. We have the resources to provide them with the right coaching. A kid who is playing for fun has no chance against my kid who has played almost every day since being able to hold a racquet.

And who really cares? The commodification of sports/intense focus on success in sports as the end is doing more harm than good for your kids. They're burning out, getting injured, suffering mental health, and parents are overspending chasing the delusion that they can mold their kid into an athlete when the ultimate goal should be enjoying the process of sports. Your unathletic but well coached tennis player is not going to play in the U.S. Open and it's weird and unhinged to compare him to a casual for parental bragging rights

Truth right here

It sounds like a defeatist sad sack mentality. Your kid will never be good so why bother even trying? But, how would you know without trying? There are so many good life lessons in the process. Why would you discourage a kid from trying their best, setting goals, challenging themselves? What's the alternative? Sounds like it's doing nothing and just hating on everyone else.

There's a huge difference between pushing a kid to try their best as a process to develop the kids and teach them life lessons vs pushing a kid beyond what's reasonable/healthy so they can reach a pie in the sky elitist goal. This whole conversation started with an OP lamenting that their seemingly well-adjusted, healthy and happy kids enjoyed a peaceful life and got into good schools but not ivies or aren't playing on scholarship. It's borderline sickness to be disappointed in your child if they don't achieve a status that's reserved for approximately 1-2% of the population.

We had a different read on the OP. OP seemed to think by casually playing rec you could walk onto the baseball team in high school. Turns out that wasn't the case. And then you're taking it to the furthest extreme to mean that OP expected a D1 baseball scholarship by forcing them through all available means to do something they hated and had no talent for. Plenty of kids play youth sports and are happy doing it beyond a rec level without their parents forcing them or having a sickness. There's a whole middle ground between doing nothing and expecting to be elite.

I don't think our read was that different. I think the OP provided their kids that middle ground of playing youth sports and the kids being happy with it. Unless a child shows natural ability AND a desire to throw their life into sports That middle ground SHOULD be the end all be all.

OP's position seems to be (and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong) that they somehow failed because they didn't push their kid for a D1 scholarship despite it sounding like their kids are doing well. It's the comparison to an highlight elite percent of athletes/academics that is robbing OP of the joy she should have in raising kids that are on track to be successful and she did it in a way that worked for her family. Strive a hard as you want but it's the process of striving that's more valuable than a predetermined result (uber-elite college or D1 scholarship)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is all about inner drive. Full stop.
Beyond that, if you do happen to have a genuinely driven kid it is a parents' core responsibility to support them in time, money and encouragement to fulfill their potential.

Rationalize as many do, but any parent who does not do so has seriously done a disservice to their child.

My husband loves tennis. He never had formal tennis lessons. He did make his high school tennis team. He would never make the team around here but back in the early nineties, being athletic and able to hit a tennis ball was enough.

My kids have played tennis since preschool. They played daily during Covid. We have the resources to provide them with the right coaching. A kid who is playing for fun has no chance against my kid who has played almost every day since being able to hold a racquet.

And who really cares? The commodification of sports/intense focus on success in sports as the end is doing more harm than good for your kids. They're burning out, getting injured, suffering mental health, and parents are overspending chasing the delusion that they can mold their kid into a athlete when the ultimate goal should be enjoying the process of sports. Your unathletic but well coached tennis player is not going to play in the U.S. Open and it's weird and unhinged to compare him to a casual for parental bragging rights

DP but what about PPs kid suggested they were "unathletic" seems like you're just looking to be a jerk. Do you have any data to support that student athletes are in worse shape mentally and physically compared to the non-student athletes? I haven't heard of a kid on the tennis team shooting up a school recently, have you?

Oh, and if their kid was really athletic, they wouldn't have compared them (as a player that plays everyday) to a kid that plays casually. Athletes (and their parents) don't typically compare themselves to casuals... it's the other way around.

This

I believe that PPs point was that sheer talent without the effort doesn't mean you can up and beat a kid at tennis who has been working hard even if they are marginally talented. That's the whole point of Gladwell's Outliers. Practice takes you from good to great, but you won't ever be great without the work.

I agree with that thesis. But, My point is that a great athlete that also trains everyday would be embarrassed to even be compared to an athlete that plays a sport casually at best. PP's tennis playing child is either unathletic or would be horrified to know their mom thinks that's a legitimate comparison. 😆

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP you don’t have enough perspective on this yet. From where you sit getting into a great college is the end goal. But it’s not really.

Once all these kids are 30, come back and tell us which are happiest and most productive in something that matters.

Life does not stop at 30, or 40, or 50, unless you die, and we all want to die before our children. If you classify everything into this win/lose dichotomy you will always feel insecure and miserable.

I have a friend who had a fabulous career and ambitious husband at 30-something, turns out he was an addict and died and left them all penniless a couple of years later. Oops, looks like she “lost” right when she was supposed to be winning!

I don't want my kids to “win,” I want them to be resilient and handle the curveballs life throws at them, because there WILL be curveballs. And travel soccer won’t necessarily give them that particular skill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get parents like you who check out and are surprised by this. Teens are still kids and need parent support and help.

Not riding your kids’ behind to get into a T20 is not the same as “checking out.”
Geez people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m sending my youngest to college next year. He got into a good school early addmission and all of my kids did well. But as I look back on this parenting experience it occurs to me that the kids with the fanaticaly involved parents did the best - academically and athletically.

When the kids were in early elementary school, I remember shaking my head as my fellow parents talked about advanced math tutoring for their kindergartener or plotting to get their second grader on the most competitive travel team. At the time it seemed so silly to chart out the life of a kid who still needed naps. [b]However, looking at those kids now - those are the kids who are going on to play sports at top colleges.

My takeaway is that even if you are a committed free range parent - your kid is in a competitive environment competing for scarce opportunities to go to top schools and play for competitive school teams.

I’m not unhappy about how my kids turned out or their experience in high School. But I don’t think I realized the the decision not to push advanced math in grade school meant a diminished opportunity to go to Tech or UMD. I definitely didn’t realize that only doing town baseball (and not travel) meant that they wouldn’t make the highschool team.

It not like my kids were slouches. They played on at least one rec team every season. Swim team in the summer and got good grades and scores on standardized tests.

But I can’t shake the feeling that I’ve pushed harder our results would’ve been much better.

I mean, it's a little odd that you regard that as an envious accomplishment. I wouldn't wish that for my children in a million years. Being a college athlete would suck. The team owns you. It wouldn't be an authentic college experience. And, with the exception of a slice of football and basketball players, there's no meaningful career to go into in the sport afterwards.

Same for pushing math and STEM artificially. I mean, if your kid has natural aptitude, by all means, challenge them. But trying to engineer it or force a love for it in a kid who is inclined in the humanities is silly. And the joke's on them -- STEM careers aren't future proof and we're in the process of seeing a massive shakeout of disruption. On the flip side, kids with liberal arts degrees are going to be super high demand by employers, including tech employers, in the coming decades.

So, I'm with #teamadequateparenting. You got them launched. You did your job. Don't compare -- they may have gotten what they wanted, but it was likely a Faustian bargain.

Don’t listen to this person, don’t know if they work in tech or anywhere at all.

Hard skills are more than required in the real world now. Coasting by on your presentation or gift of the gab skills is useless nowadays, it needs to be backed up by something very solid.

I wish this were true but that has not been my experience or many people’s experiences. Lots of mediocre people
in high management positions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m sending my youngest to college next year. He got into a good school early addmission and all of my kids did well. But as I look back on this parenting experience it occurs to me that the kids with the fanaticaly involved parents did the best - academically and athletically.

When the kids were in early elementary school, I remember shaking my head as my fellow parents talked about advanced math tutoring for their kindergartener or plotting to get their second grader on the most competitive travel team. At the time it seemed so silly to chart out the life of a kid who still needed naps. [b]However, looking at those kids now - those are the kids who are going on to play sports at top colleges.

My takeaway is that even if you are a committed free range parent - your kid is in a competitive environment competing for scarce opportunities to go to top schools and play for competitive school teams.

I’m not unhappy about how my kids turned out or their experience in high School. But I don’t think I realized the the decision not to push advanced math in grade school meant a diminished opportunity to go to Tech or UMD. I definitely didn’t realize that only doing town baseball (and not travel) meant that they wouldn’t make the highschool team.

It not like my kids were slouches. They played on at least one rec team every season. Swim team in the summer and got good grades and scores on standardized tests.

But I can’t shake the feeling that I’ve pushed harder our results would’ve been much better.

I mean, it's a little odd that you regard that as an envious accomplishment. I wouldn't wish that for my children in a million years. Being a college athlete would suck. The team owns you. It wouldn't be an authentic college experience. And, with the exception of a slice of football and basketball players, there's no meaningful career to go into in the sport afterwards.

Same for pushing math and STEM artificially. I mean, if your kid has natural aptitude, by all means, challenge them. But trying to engineer it or force a love for it in a kid who is inclined in the humanities is silly. And the joke's on them -- STEM careers aren't future proof and we're in the process of seeing a massive shakeout of disruption. On the flip side, kids with liberal arts degrees are going to be super high demand by employers, including tech employers, in the coming decades.

So, I'm with #teamadequateparenting. You got them launched. You did your job. Don't compare -- they may have gotten what they wanted, but it was likely a Faustian bargain.

Don’t listen to this person, don’t know if they work in tech or anywhere at all.

Hard skills are more than required in the real world now. Coasting by on your presentation or gift of the gab skills is useless nowadays, it needs to be backed up by something very solid.

I wish this were true but that has not been my experience or many people’s experiences. Lots of mediocre people
in high management positions.

To be fair, you may think some of their skills are mediocre, but their networking skills are top notch. At some point soft skills matter more than hard skills. But the hard skills get your foot in the door.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted once about my friend who was pushing her daughters to play travel when her kids didn’t even want to go to rec. The parents themselves are not very athletic but wanted their kids to be athletes. Kids got cut from travel teams in elementary. You can push all you want but if your kid doesn’t like it or want to do it, s/he will not excel.

But it takes both. If the super talented kid doesn't have a ride to the tournament or practice, he's not going to get far.

This is true. I posted above that my kid likes basketball. It isn’t like in the movies where some kid just plays street ball and becomes some NBA player. Maybe this can happen somewhere with some 7 ft talented basketball kid who somehow manages to train himself.

From what I see, the talented players often have a parent or parents who were athletes themselves. They may have been high school, college or pro but the parents were some type of athlete. These kids start early. They may do some switching of sports but they all play sports from young ages. By the time they are 10-12, they are already on competitive teams whether it is basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball or lacrosse. The days of just walking on a team in high school are gone.

To use Simone Biles as an example (because my daughter is into gymnastics) her family was deep in debt before the Olympics, behind on their gym fees. A lot of families can't or won't take a second mortgage to let their kids fulfill their fantasies. It's not just raw talent. It's very much pay to play.

Absolutely. I just posted above that my kid plays tennis. He is athletic but we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on tennis. I know tennis is an expensive sport.

My friend has a daughter who is really good at gymnastics. I know they have to travel often for tournaments. Even without the training and gym costs, just the time and money to travel to these meets and tournaments will cost you thousands. You need parents with the time, money and dedication to do this.

I recently saw that tiger woods’ parents had to take a second mortgage to support his golf playing. It sure paid off.

Except for Tiger Woods' pain/medical conditions, his womanizing that broke up his nuclear family, and his risk-taking behaviors. All related to his exceptional career. He is a great athlete but also seems like a very troubled person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted once about my friend who was pushing her daughters to play travel when her kids didn’t even want to go to rec. The parents themselves are not very athletic but wanted their kids to be athletes. Kids got cut from travel teams in elementary. You can push all you want but if your kid doesn’t like it or want to do it, s/he will not excel.

But it takes both. If the super talented kid doesn't have a ride to the tournament or practice, he's not going to get far.

This is true. I posted above that my kid likes basketball. It isn’t like in the movies where some kid just plays street ball and becomes some NBA player. Maybe this can happen somewhere with some 7 ft talented basketball kid who somehow manages to train himself.

From what I see, the talented players often have a parent or parents who were athletes themselves. They may have been high school, college or pro but the parents were some type of athlete. These kids start early. They may do some switching of sports but they all play sports from young ages. By the time they are 10-12, they are already on competitive teams whether it is basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball or lacrosse. The days of just walking on a team in high school are gone.

To use Simone Biles as an example (because my daughter is into gymnastics) her family was deep in debt before the Olympics, behind on their gym fees. A lot of families can't or won't take a second mortgage to let their kids fulfill their fantasies. It's not just raw talent. It's very much pay to play.

Absolutely. I just posted above that my kid plays tennis. He is athletic but we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on tennis. I know tennis is an expensive sport.

My friend has a daughter who is really good at gymnastics. I know they have to travel often for tournaments. Even without the training and gym costs, just the time and money to travel to these meets and tournaments will cost you thousands. You need parents with the time, money and dedication to do this.

I recently saw that tiger woods’ parents had to take a second mortgage to support his golf playing. It sure paid off.

Except for Tiger Woods' pain/medical conditions, his womanizing that broke up his nuclear family, and his risk-taking behaviors. All related to his exceptional career. He is a great athlete but also seems like a very troubled person.

I think he's an extreme outlier. He was so young when he hit fame and in an individual sport. It's a hard life and these young athletes often struggle. Like Jennifer Capriati, Michelle Wie, Naomi Osaka. But I don't think that's what most parents are aspiring to, sometimes it's just making the high school team and cruising along in low commitment rec teams aren't good enough anymore, to the surprise of some.

[Anonymous]

Run your own race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get parents like you who check out and are surprised by this. Teens are still kids and need parent support and help.

Not riding your kids’ behind to get into a T20 is not the same as “checking out.”
Geez people.

Not everyone cares about school ratings. I wouldn't even know the T20 schools or care. Maybe we support our kids in their activities as that's what they choose and enjoy. I wouldn't even want my kid to do sports in college but it's a good life long skill. The other activity, maybe in college, if they choose it but we would prefer not and they pick a higher paying major.

Travel sports aren't the only way to do sports. It isn't all or nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted once about my friend who was pushing her daughters to play travel when her kids didn’t even want to go to rec. The parents themselves are not very athletic but wanted their kids to be athletes. Kids got cut from travel teams in elementary. You can push all you want but if your kid doesn’t like it or want to do it, s/he will not excel.

But it takes both. If the super talented kid doesn't have a ride to the tournament or practice, he's not going to get far.

This is true. I posted above that my kid likes basketball. It isn’t like in the movies where some kid just plays street ball and becomes some NBA player. Maybe this can happen somewhere with some 7 ft talented basketball kid who somehow manages to train himself.

From what I see, the talented players often have a parent or parents who were athletes themselves. They may have been high school, college or pro but the parents were some type of athlete. These kids start early. They may do some switching of sports but they all play sports from young ages. By the time they are 10-12, they are already on competitive teams whether it is basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball or lacrosse. The days of just walking on a team in high school are gone.

To use Simone Biles as an example (because my daughter is into gymnastics) her family was deep in debt before the Olympics, behind on their gym fees. A lot of families can't or won't take a second mortgage to let their kids fulfill their fantasies. It's not just raw talent. It's very much pay to play.

Absolutely. I just posted above that my kid plays tennis. He is athletic but we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on tennis. I know tennis is an expensive sport.

My friend has a daughter who is really good at gymnastics. I know they have to travel often for tournaments. Even without the training and gym costs, just the time and money to travel to these meets and tournaments will cost you thousands. You need parents with the time, money and dedication to do this.

I recently saw that tiger woods’ parents had to take a second mortgage to support his golf playing. It sure paid off.

Except for Tiger Woods' pain/medical conditions, his womanizing that broke up his nuclear family, and his risk-taking behaviors. All related to his exceptional career. He is a great athlete but also seems like a very troubled person.

Many people, not in sports, average people have affairs, medical issues and much more. One has nothing to do with the other.

[Anonymous]

A child with devoted and involved parent is a lucky child. Especially, if the parent has taught them skills that has made them lifelong learners, resilient risk takers, thoughtful, civic minded, moral and empathic humans.

Admission to an elite college is not the goal. It maybe a byproduct of the talent, training and work ethics invested in academics and ECs, but the end goal is the development of a healthy, resourceful, strong intelligent and good social being.