Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

The previous poster claimed MCPS got rid of self-contained programs in favor of full inclusion. As your post demonstrates, MCPS didn't do that. There are a fairly large number of self-contained and partially integrated options. But MCPS isn't funding them appropriately because it is cheaper to keep students in gen ed classrooms without even provided proper supports.

Adding to that, schools make it worse by grouping kids with IEPs in common gen ed classrooms. And even then the school tries to provide the bare minimum special education supports to those students and teachers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Sometimes kids cannot be rehabilitated. Sometimes there are just not so good kids. Look at the child in VA that shot his teacher. The child in my sons class was off- he had no compassion and no empathy, a sociopath in the making. How long are the directors willing to keep these kids in school (they call it the holding process) before other children get really hurt. Aka they know it’s the wrong placement but there aren’t openings at the other programs bc they are short staffed or classes are full. Until mcps brings back more specialized programs and creates more space for these kids, there is no other option. If getting police involved expedites the process and shows there is a paper trail, then yes, I am willing to protect the majority of all children for one bad apple.

Part of the problem is these days almost half the students in MCPS have "special needs". There just isn't staff to handle this and probably never will be.

There's a broad spectrum of special needs and the accompanying supports required to address them. Even if we were to adopt this thread's segregated classroom approach, it would not be appropriate or necessary for most kids with IEPs or 504s to be based in a segregated environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

Let them eat cake!

[Anonymous]

Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

Online school could better adapt to fit the unique needs of these kids. The opposition here is hurting kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

You really need to get over your wet dream of banishing kids with special needs from schools. No matter how much you'd like to ignore their existence until they die on the streets, the rest of society isn't going to let that happen. If you actually want to see improvements, why not address reasonable and practical steps that schools could take?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best placement is online school

In other words, the streets

School is not daycare or a prison. It can be delivered online effectively.

Clearly you live in a bubble. Who is making the kid do the work?

Teachers can’t make them do it in class either. They can choose to do the work or they can choose to fail. At least they aren’t disrupting the students who are there to actually learn. It’s not fair to the other kids.

I suppose the kids would kill each other in the inner city before reaching adulthood.

Let them do online school instead

You really need to get over your wet dream of banishing kids with special needs from schools. No matter how much you'd like to ignore their existence until they die on the streets, the rest of society isn't going to let that happen. If you actually want to see improvements, why not address reasonable and practical steps that schools could take?

Public schools can barely educate children. What makes you think they can provide therapy to kids with greater needs? Put them in therapy and find a better solution for education.

[Anonymous]

https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

Online school could better adapt to fit the unique needs of these kids. The opposition here is hurting kids.

Except that they inherently can't provide the services or supports that would be needed for many of the students we're alluding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

4 isn’t that many. What language do the kids speak? There is a shortage of ESOL teachers so a newcomers program is unlikely. Plus ELLs do better surrounded by English speakers. Do these kids receive support from ESOL teachers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

Online school could better adapt to fit the unique needs of these kids. The opposition here is hurting kids.

Except that they inherently can't provide the services or supports that would be needed for many of the students we're alluding to.

Public schools, whether in-person or online, both cannot do this properly.

The therapy needs to come from elsewhere. One advantage of online school is the flexibility it allows for kids to actually get the therapy they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. There are similar programs in Maryland. But it is very hard to get private placement and the programs are very expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://jri.org/services/educational-and-residential/day-schools

Massachusetts has four day schools that function as therapeutic schools, without the boarding element.

Capacity: 30- 50 students.

How is it not cheaper to run a therapeutic day school than a boarding school?

If you count RICA and the two ESESES programs, MCPS is not far behind. But we do need more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our grade has at least 4 kids that don't speak a word of English. One joined just this month. How come there is no separate school for English learners or at least a few week program to get them started? Our poor teacher can't communicate with the child at all and my daughter tells me the poor child just looks miserable all day.

Online school could better adapt to fit the unique needs of these kids. The opposition here is hurting kids.

Except that they inherently can't provide the services or supports that would be needed for many of the students we're alluding to.

Public schools, whether in-person or online, both cannot do this properly.

The therapy needs to come from elsewhere. One advantage of online school is the flexibility it allows for kids to actually get the therapy they need.

It can sometimes be hard to tell when you're attempting to have a serious discussion. This is one of those times.

For significant developmental disabilities and behavioral/emotional disorders, you can't separate therapy and education. Therapy and disability-dependent supports are integrated in the educational environment.

And besides not being able to do that, no, online school does not provide "flexibility" that helps in these situations. It just makes it harder to find, set-up, and coordinate between these different providers. Why do you think center-based programs have gotten so popular for higher-needs kids compared to a la carte arrangements?