Better protocols needed to account for classified documents handled by political officials et Al …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

"Immediately" returned the book after the most recent election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

+ a million.

And wait till they find classified docs in some FOURTH location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since there are no visitor logs for the Delaware property, the special counsel will need to interview all family members, friends, workers, etc. who may have had access to his home and garage.

And, he will need to get the list from the Secret Service of everyone who entered the property.

Why? You think they've interviewed every person who was at Mar-a-Lago for the 18 months before the search warrant was served on Trump?

Sounds as if the documents at Mar-a-Lago were locked in a room. Not an office or the garage, but a room that was not occupied. In a building that has SS protection.

You people have this so very, very wrong. Thousands of Mar a Lago guests were within feet of where Trump kept the stolen classified documents, and the doors to the storage area were frequently open.

+1
The man had phone calls on an unsecured cell phone throughout his term - some in front of foreign leaders at the dinner table. Such short memories these trumpers have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since there are no visitor logs for the Delaware property, the special counsel will need to interview all family members, friends, workers, etc. who may have had access to his home and garage.

And, he will need to get the list from the Secret Service of everyone who entered the property.

Why? You think they've interviewed every person who was at Mar-a-Lago for the 18 months before the search warrant was served on Trump?

Sounds as if the documents at Mar-a-Lago were locked in a room. Not an office or the garage, but a room that was not occupied. In a building that has SS protection.

You people have this so very, very wrong. Thousands of Mar a Lago guests were within feet of where Trump kept the stolen classified documents, and the doors to the storage area were frequently open.

+1
The man had phone calls on an unsecured cell phone throughout his term - some in front of foreign leaders at the dinner table. Such short memories these trumpers have.

That precedent was set by the previous administration. My memory is a bit longer rhan yours apparently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since there are no visitor logs for the Delaware property, the special counsel will need to interview all family members, friends, workers, etc. who may have had access to his home and garage.

And, he will need to get the list from the Secret Service of everyone who entered the property.

Why? You think they've interviewed every person who was at Mar-a-Lago for the 18 months before the search warrant was served on Trump?

Sounds as if the documents at Mar-a-Lago were locked in a room. Not an office or the garage, but a room that was not occupied. In a building that has SS protection.

You people have this so very, very wrong. Thousands of Mar a Lago guests were within feet of where Trump kept the stolen classified documents, and the doors to the storage area were frequently open.

+1
The man had phone calls on an unsecured cell phone throughout his term - some in front of foreign leaders at the dinner table. Such short memories these trumpers have.

Can some "but her emails" poster speak to why you excuse Trump?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since there are no visitor logs for the Delaware property, the special counsel will need to interview all family members, friends, workers, etc. who may have had access to his home and garage.

And, he will need to get the list from the Secret Service of everyone who entered the property.

Why? You think they've interviewed every person who was at Mar-a-Lago for the 18 months before the search warrant was served on Trump?

Sounds as if the documents at Mar-a-Lago were locked in a room. Not an office or the garage, but a room that was not occupied. In a building that has SS protection.

You people have this so very, very wrong. Thousands of Mar a Lago guests were within feet of where Trump kept the stolen classified documents, and the doors to the storage area were frequently open.

Clean up on aisle 9!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

I am the PP you are responding to and I get your point. I think where I’m coming from is that these procedures work for the standard guy who screws up—they don’t just walk away, they are held accountable because there are so many protocols in place already that for someone to walk away with classified material, it’s almost a safe assumption that it was deliberate. You don’t accidentally take that piece of paper that’s marked up with the word “classified” or “secret” and accidentally slip it into your notebook. Therefore repercussions are put in place. You don’t accidentally send classified material via email to an unclassified network or computer, because those two “worlds” don’t talk, hence all the fingers that were pointed at Hillary. Whether she or her staffer knowingly copied data and the posted it on an unclassified server somehow, or recited classified info on an unclassified computer and sent it that way, it’s all prohibited. It wasn’t a “whoops”, and we assume this to be true because there are protocols in place to prevent this from happening.

So, sure, are there other things we can do to prevent this from happening? Absolutely. But until we start buttoning up access to classified data and holding people AT ALL LEVELS accountable for its storage, transfer and content, adding more protocols is useless. To have very senior officials (the most senior!) sit back and act like, “well that guy did it too!” is bullshit. And before anyone accuses me of thinking anything Trump did was okay, I do not. I despise Trump. But these ridiculous exercises of making this, too, political are making my head hurt. Possession of a security clearance requires routine training and makes it abundantly clear how this information should be handled and what happens when it’s mishandled. This is simply wrong and someone’s head needs to roll in all/any of these circumstances, regardless of party. If someone thinks a locked garage behind a Corvette is a better landing place than Mar A Lago, or vice versa, then they are missing the real issue here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

I am the PP you are responding to and I get your point. I think where I’m coming from is that these procedures work for the standard guy who screws up—they don’t just walk away, they are held accountable because there are so many protocols in place already that for someone to walk away with classified material, it’s almost a safe assumption that it was deliberate. You don’t accidentally take that piece of paper that’s marked up with the word “classified” or “secret” and accidentally slip it into your notebook. Therefore repercussions are put in place. You don’t accidentally send classified material via email to an unclassified network or computer, because those two “worlds” don’t talk, hence all the fingers that were pointed at Hillary. Whether she or her staffer knowingly copied data and the posted it on an unclassified server somehow, or recited classified info on an unclassified computer and sent it that way, it’s all prohibited. It wasn’t a “whoops”, and we assume this to be true because there are protocols in place to prevent this from happening.

So, sure, are there other things we can do to prevent this from happening? Absolutely. But until we start buttoning up access to classified data and holding people AT ALL LEVELS accountable for its storage, transfer and content, adding more protocols is useless. To have very senior officials (the most senior!) sit back and act like, “well that guy did it too!” is bullshit. And before anyone accuses me of thinking anything Trump did was okay, I do not. I despise Trump. But these ridiculous exercises of making this, too, political are making my head hurt. Possession of a security clearance requires routine training and makes it abundantly clear how this information should be handled and what happens when it’s mishandled. This is simply wrong and someone’s head needs to roll in all/any of these circumstances, regardless of party. If someone thinks a locked garage behind a Corvette is a better landing place than Mar A Lago, or vice versa, then they are missing the real issue here.

DP. + a million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

Why isn't there an electronic check-in/check-out process, like a library has? That would track who has what, and when they took it out, and when it needs to be returned. And for TS docs removed from a SCIF for a briefing or review by an official, why don't they have them bound into a binder with an electronic tracker? That kind of technology is ubiquitous and cheap these days. Is the year 2023, or is this 1780?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

Not the PP, but that isn't what they typed.

This isn't hard:

The cases are different because the underlying facts are different.