US has no good options in Ukraine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the educated guesses for how this might end?

Badly.

For whom? Everyone or just Ukraine?

IDK. Compare NATO to the Allies in WW2. Asking a country like Germany to pay more for NATO is not the same thing as dumping NATO. Who in the USA really wants to dump NATO? The political powerhouse supported by the squad and Bernie and that was after Putin rolled the tanks and started bombing Kyiv. Perhaps the factions in the USA emboldened Russia? Perhaps the fact we don't really have a secure border?

No NATO and countries could fall like dominos - same as WW2. Poland, Baltic countries, former East Germany, Moldova, Slovakia, Hungary. Putin didn't only invade Donbass, the section where lots of ethnic Russians live and fighting has been going on since 2014.

Meanwhile the Democratic Socialists of America have called for disbanding NATO after Putin invaded Ukraine, blitzrieged through and into the Kyiv olbast Chernobyl exclusion zone from his Belarus, bombed cities in western Ukraine, etc.

February 26, 2022 DSA statement: https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

"DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict. We call on antiwar activists in the US and across the world to oppose violent escalations, demand a lasting diplomatic solution, and stress the crucial need to accept any and all refugees resulting from this crisis. Much of the next ten years are coming into view through this attack. While the failures of neoliberal order are clear to everyone, the ruling class is trying to build a new world, through a dystopic transition grounded in militarism, imperialism, and war. Socialists have a duty to build an alternative.

No war but class war.

Join DSA today. "

Keep trying with the anti-American propaganda. We see through it. Keep pretending to be a socialist Dem or Putin loving republican. Doesn’t matter. You will never beat us. Never. Now go empty your Russian bank account before the money runs out. The world is united.

No seriously, get to the bank. Save yourself and your family while you still can. Russia has no future until Putin is gone.

You have only a few hours left to get your money out of Russia. Putin just bamned Russians from buying foreign exchange and moving money. It starts tomorrow. Hurry! The troll campaign can wait. Protect yourself! Putin has destroyed Russia with his own ego and stupidity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the educated guesses for how this might end?

Badly.

For whom? Everyone or just Ukraine?

IDK. Compare NATO to the Allies in WW2. Asking a country like Germany to pay more for NATO is not the same thing as dumping NATO. Who in the USA really wants to dump NATO? The political powerhouse supported by the squad and Bernie and that was after Putin rolled the tanks and started bombing Kyiv. Perhaps the factions in the USA emboldened Russia? Perhaps the fact we don't really have a secure border?

No NATO and countries could fall like dominos - same as WW2. Poland, Baltic countries, former East Germany, Moldova, Slovakia, Hungary. Putin didn't only invade Donbass, the section where lots of ethnic Russians live and fighting has been going on since 2014.

Meanwhile the Democratic Socialists of America have called for disbanding NATO after Putin invaded Ukraine, blitzrieged through and into the Kyiv olbast Chernobyl exclusion zone from his Belarus, bombed cities in western Ukraine, etc.

February 26, 2022 DSA statement: https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

"DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict. We call on antiwar activists in the US and across the world to oppose violent escalations, demand a lasting diplomatic solution, and stress the crucial need to accept any and all refugees resulting from this crisis. Much of the next ten years are coming into view through this attack. While the failures of neoliberal order are clear to everyone, the ruling class is trying to build a new world, through a dystopic transition grounded in militarism, imperialism, and war. Socialists have a duty to build an alternative.

No war but class war.

Join DSA today. "

Keep trying with the anti-American propaganda. We see through it. Keep pretending to be a socialist Dem or Putin loving republican. Doesn’t matter. You will never beat us. Never. Now go empty your Russian bank account before the money runs out. The world is united.

No seriously, get to the bank. Save yourself and your family while you still can. Russia has no future until Putin is gone.

You have only a few hours left to get your money out of Russia. Putin just bamned Russians from buying foreign exchange and moving money. It starts tomorrow. Hurry! The troll campaign can wait. Protect yourself! Putin has destroyed Russia with his own ego and stupidity.

I wonder if all of the Russian disinformation campaigns will become muted now that the trolls won't be paid and neither will their foreign beneficiaries. It'll be interesting to see if things like the Ottawa truck convoy and others were in part funded by the Russians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Russia invade Ukraine?

Because Putin wanted to.

There's some complicated stuff about rebuilding the past and destroying democracy, etc. But basically, Putin wanted to. So he did.

Putin also saw the weakness of the Euro west. The weakness of the Biden administration. Putin saw the opportunity and seized it.

Is it through a Republican organization that so many Republicans repeat the same word to describe Biden? Seems like a message was sent out to use the word “weak” as much as possible when it comes to Biden. Anyone know who is behind coordinating these messages? I find it fascinating how they get implanted into people’s brains and then restated repeatedly.

Yes.

Thinking and recognizing hypocrisy is not their strong suit.

It’s straight from Putin. Trump and the republicans just do what they are told. Weak is the word of the week. Monday usually mean a new word or phrasing from Fox.

Look back over the last year. We have been calling Biden weak all along. Nothing new here. And, we saw this demonstrated pretty clearly with the Afghanistan withdrawal.
We call him weak because that is frankly what he is.

How did such a weakling beat Trump? Trump, by definition, MUST be weaker than Biden. But then logic isn’t your thing so this will fly right over your head.

Because Biden hid in the basement and the press gave him a pass. Trump lost to the phantom Biden of days long past and the press sung his praises forever.

If the current doddering Biden who can't even get through an entire sentence without taking a nap had ever been on the campaign trail, it would have been lights out.

Biden held small rallies to keep people safe. Trump didn’t care how many people he killed as long as he looked popular. Trump’s rallies led to 30,000 infections and at least 700 deaths.
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/study-trump-rallies-spreading-coronavirus-and-death/

[Anonymous]

Can this thread be retitled now?
“Biden used smart tactics for Ukraine”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Russia invade Ukraine?

Because Putin wanted to.

There's some complicated stuff about rebuilding the past and destroying democracy, etc. But basically, Putin wanted to. So he did.

Putin also saw the weakness of the Euro west. The weakness of the Biden administration. Putin saw the opportunity and seized it.

Except it turns out he was wrong. The EU, Biden Administration and Ukraine weren't and aren't weak. So that just makes him stupid.

Come on man. The escalation only came after Putin went beyond the two regions that are pro-Russian. If he would have just stopped there, the western world would not have done much else. It took an immense amount of international pressure for these leaders to come around to increasing the sanctions to include meaningful ones like SWIFT. Not just Putin, but most leaders thought that Ukraine would lose quickly and decisively against a Russian invasion. Thanks for the bravery and valor of Ukrainians, this did not happen. In this context, the EU took their sweet ass time deciding whether it was worth it to go against Russia and pay higher energy prices, and only came around to it after it became apparent that Ukraine was putting up a good fight and it became difficult to look themselves in the mirror.

Pathetic.

Please explain to me how it should have gone differently. Diplomacy is a back and forth. A sovereign nation must be able to defend itself and Ukraine is not a NATO member. Russia taking on Ukraine is 1:1 because of that. If NATO countries directly got involved OR proceed to the strictest sanctions from the get it would be like using all of our missiles- but that doesnt mean the invaders stop AND it would be an escalation. Russia is not attacking any EU country nor the US- directly anyways. Its a threat absolutely but response to a threat must be measured or you can end up provoking a bully to act (initially or further) because youve embarrassed them or in essence, put gasoline on a smoldering fire.

Other countries needed to see whether Ukraine was actually willing to protect itself or it would turn into another Afghanistan- where another country is doing the fighting on behalf of another. The citizens of a country need to WANT to defend their sovereignty beyond stating it, it needs to be actionable.

You write this as if there was some consistent thought in place for dealing with Putin. There wasn't. Everyone is *surprised* at the degree to which the west has responded to Putin. This is especially true of Germany, whose new government was broadly viewed as more friendly to Russia. They had repeatedly refused to help Ukraine, using a variety of excuses such as that they won't send arms to conflict territory. They kept their defense spending to historical levels of about 1.1-1.2% GDP.

One of the key reasons why Putin was emboldened to invade Ukraine was because of the demonstrated weakness of NATO nations. The non-reaction by NATO nations during the first two days of invasion when he occupied Donbas was a confirmation to Putin that the west would do nothing meaningful, and therefore he pushed into the rest of the country. That the west finally woke up and did something is a surprise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the educated guesses for how this might end?

Badly.

For whom? Everyone or just Ukraine?

IDK. Compare NATO to the Allies in WW2. Asking a country like Germany to pay more for NATO is not the same thing as dumping NATO. Who in the USA really wants to dump NATO? The political powerhouse supported by the squad and Bernie and that was after Putin rolled the tanks and started bombing Kyiv. Perhaps the factions in the USA emboldened Russia? Perhaps the fact we don't really have a secure border?

No NATO and countries could fall like dominos - same as WW2. Poland, Baltic countries, former East Germany, Moldova, Slovakia, Hungary. Putin didn't only invade Donbass, the section where lots of ethnic Russians live and fighting has been going on since 2014.

Meanwhile the Democratic Socialists of America have called for disbanding NATO after Putin invaded Ukraine, blitzrieged through and into the Kyiv olbast Chernobyl exclusion zone from his Belarus, bombed cities in western Ukraine, etc.

February 26, 2022 DSA statement: https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

"DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict. We call on antiwar activists in the US and across the world to oppose violent escalations, demand a lasting diplomatic solution, and stress the crucial need to accept any and all refugees resulting from this crisis. Much of the next ten years are coming into view through this attack. While the failures of neoliberal order are clear to everyone, the ruling class is trying to build a new world, through a dystopic transition grounded in militarism, imperialism, and war. Socialists have a duty to build an alternative.

No war but class war.

Join DSA today. "

Keep trying with the anti-American propaganda. We see through it. Keep pretending to be a socialist Dem or Putin loving republican. Doesn’t matter. You will never beat us. Never. Now go empty your Russian bank account before the money runs out. The world is united.

No seriously, get to the bank. Save yourself and your family while you still can. Russia has no future until Putin is gone.

You have only a few hours left to get your money out of Russia. Putin just bamned Russians from buying foreign exchange and moving money. It starts tomorrow. Hurry! The troll campaign can wait. Protect yourself! Putin has destroyed Russia with his own ego and stupidity.

I wonder if all of the Russian disinformation campaigns will become muted now that the trolls won't be paid and neither will their foreign beneficiaries. It'll be interesting to see if things like the Ottawa truck convoy and others were in part funded by the Russians.

Yes - that will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Do we have countermeasures to step in and fill the void with facts? Pay them to spread truth? Can the misinformation machine be used for good instead of evil?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Russia invade Ukraine?

Because Putin wanted to.

There's some complicated stuff about rebuilding the past and destroying democracy, etc. But basically, Putin wanted to. So he did.

Putin also saw the weakness of the Euro west. The weakness of the Biden administration. Putin saw the opportunity and seized it.

Is it through a Republican organization that so many Republicans repeat the same word to describe Biden? Seems like a message was sent out to use the word “weak” as much as possible when it comes to Biden. Anyone know who is behind coordinating these messages? I find it fascinating how they get implanted into people’s brains and then restated repeatedly.

Yes.

Thinking and recognizing hypocrisy is not their strong suit.

It’s straight from Putin. Trump and the republicans just do what they are told. Weak is the word of the week. Monday usually mean a new word or phrasing from Fox.

Look back over the last year. We have been calling Biden weak all along. Nothing new here. And, we saw this demonstrated pretty clearly with the Afghanistan withdrawal.
We call him weak because that is frankly what he is.

How did such a weakling beat Trump? Trump, by definition, MUST be weaker than Biden. But then logic isn’t your thing so this will fly right over your head.

Because Biden hid in the basement and the press gave him a pass. Trump lost to the phantom Biden of days long past and the press sung his praises forever.

If the current doddering Biden who can't even get through an entire sentence without taking a nap had ever been on the campaign trail, it would have been lights out.

Jesus. You have the mental abilities of a young child.

Please don't insult young children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden managed to unite the EU, strengthen NATO and bring Switzerland out of neutrality. All without saber rattling towards Russia. He handled it flawlessly.

Completely agree. Glad I voted for him.

Please, that's not reality. Putin united NATO. Biden admitted that SWIFT sanctions could not be implemented because he couldn't convince EU nations to go along. He admitted this openly. The NATO nations woke up because they realized that what has been repeatedly told to them has now come to pass, that their weak-kneed posturing on the global stage and flowery talks about peace and diplomacy is meaningless against an aggressive and ambitious enemy like Putin. They finally saw that the only way to protect themselves is through increased military spending because even Biden said the quiet part out loud that the west would do nothing if Putin just roughed up Ukraine a little bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the educated guesses for how this might end?

Badly.

For whom? Everyone or just Ukraine?

IDK. Compare NATO to the Allies in WW2. Asking a country like Germany to pay more for NATO is not the same thing as dumping NATO. Who in the USA really wants to dump NATO? The political powerhouse supported by the squad and Bernie and that was after Putin rolled the tanks and started bombing Kyiv. Perhaps the factions in the USA emboldened Russia? Perhaps the fact we don't really have a secure border?

No NATO and countries could fall like dominos - same as WW2. Poland, Baltic countries, former East Germany, Moldova, Slovakia, Hungary. Putin didn't only invade Donbass, the section where lots of ethnic Russians live and fighting has been going on since 2014.

Meanwhile the Democratic Socialists of America have called for disbanding NATO after Putin invaded Ukraine, blitzrieged through and into the Kyiv olbast Chernobyl exclusion zone from his Belarus, bombed cities in western Ukraine, etc.

February 26, 2022 DSA statement: https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

"DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict. We call on antiwar activists in the US and across the world to oppose violent escalations, demand a lasting diplomatic solution, and stress the crucial need to accept any and all refugees resulting from this crisis. Much of the next ten years are coming into view through this attack. While the failures of neoliberal order are clear to everyone, the ruling class is trying to build a new world, through a dystopic transition grounded in militarism, imperialism, and war. Socialists have a duty to build an alternative.

No war but class war.

Join DSA today. "

Keep trying with the anti-American propaganda. We see through it. Keep pretending to be a socialist Dem or Putin loving republican. Doesn’t matter. You will never beat us. Never. Now go empty your Russian bank account before the money runs out. The world is united.

No seriously, get to the bank. Save yourself and your family while you still can. Russia has no future until Putin is gone.

You have only a few hours left to get your money out of Russia. Putin just bamned Russians from buying foreign exchange and moving money. It starts tomorrow. Hurry! The troll campaign can wait. Protect yourself! Putin has destroyed Russia with his own ego and stupidity.

I wonder if all of the Russian disinformation campaigns will become muted now that the trolls won't be paid and neither will their foreign beneficiaries. It'll be interesting to see if things like the Ottawa truck convoy and others were in part funded by the Russians.

Yes - that will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Do we have countermeasures to step in and fill the void with facts? Pay them to spread truth? Can the misinformation machine be used for good instead of evil?

It's all happening now and the Russian stooges are complaining. Love to see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden managed to unite the EU, strengthen NATO and bring Switzerland out of neutrality. All without saber rattling towards Russia. He handled it flawlessly.

Completely agree. Glad I voted for him.

Please, that's not reality. Putin united NATO. Biden admitted that SWIFT sanctions could not be implemented because he couldn't convince EU nations to go along. He admitted this openly. The NATO nations woke up because they realized that what has been repeatedly told to them has now come to pass, that their weak-kneed posturing on the global stage and flowery talks about peace and diplomacy is meaningless against an aggressive and ambitious enemy like Putin. They finally saw that the only way to protect themselves is through increased military spending because even Biden said the quiet part out loud that the west would do nothing if Putin just roughed up Ukraine a little bit.

Or, he called the EU out publicly to ramp up the pressure on them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden managed to unite the EU, strengthen NATO and bring Switzerland out of neutrality. All without saber rattling towards Russia. He handled it flawlessly.

Completely agree. Glad I voted for him.

Please, that's not reality. Putin united NATO. Biden admitted that SWIFT sanctions could not be implemented because he couldn't convince EU nations to go along. He admitted this openly. The NATO nations woke up because they realized that what has been repeatedly told to them has now come to pass, that their weak-kneed posturing on the global stage and flowery talks about peace and diplomacy is meaningless against an aggressive and ambitious enemy like Putin. They finally saw that the only way to protect themselves is through increased military spending because even Biden said the quiet part out loud that the west would do nothing if Putin just roughed up Ukraine a little bit.

Not sure what you mean by "admitted". Biden has been great so far. Our CIA had great intelligence and we used it properly, removing Putin's justfication for invading Ukraine. That was great. What are you complaining about?

[Anonymous]

At the UN today

[Anonymous]

I see this eventually ending with Putin being assassinated by someone in his circle. He's backed into a corner. He can't back down without losing face and looking weak, which is literally incomprehensible to him, but he can't achieve anything more than a Pyrrhic victory, either. Russia can turn Ukraine into rubble with bombs but they don't have the will or the manpower to actually subjugate the country. They underestimated the resistance and overestimated the competence of their ground forces. The sanctions are going to send the economy back to 1991.

At some point, the people around him are going to get sick of this one-way ticket to disaster and take him out. The question is how long it takes them to come to that conclusion, get up the nerve, and execute the plot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can this thread be retitled now?
“Biden used smart tactics for Ukraine”

Nah. Keep it as a memorial to the defeatist and pro-Russian bias of conservatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do we have countermeasures to step in and fill the void with facts? Pay them to spread truth? Can the misinformation machine be used for good instead of evil?

There's no money in giving away facts. Notice how the fact-based journalistic sites are usually behind a paywall whereas propaganda sites are absolutely free.