Why is there such a racial/ethnic disconnect with TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asians are discriminated against in TJ admissions:

http://thebullelephant.com/tjhsst-discriminating-asians/

The author is a known ranter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

No, the point was that AAP would "have a problem" if a lawsuit (based on what is unclear) was filed. And that is just wrong. Every kid in the system has every chance in the world to get in; those who don't either didn't try or are not sufficiently well qualified.

This is absolute B.S. Why do you think the school board has spent so much time talking about lack of equity in AAP for the past two years? The child of a lower income or immigrant family with little understanding of English or lack of resources for prepping, getting a psychologist administered WISC etc. does not have every chance in the world. Certainly not when compared to all the upper class kids in some school districts whose parents know how to work the system. Whether someone "tries" to get into an advanced academic program should have nothing to do with it. The smartest kids should get in. Period. Clearly you've bought into the warped nature of this system for whatever reasons. Perhaps because it worked fine for your kid.

But they have to DEMONSTRATE their "smartness." You can't get in just because you are smart. It's for people whose track record shows they are academically motivated.

[Anonymous]

So what is the exact status of the Coalation of the Silence complaint? Is the DOE investigation still taking place? Last I read DOE had declined to investigate allegations of discrimination against students with disabilities and agreed that, on its face, the complaint set forth sufficient facts alleging discrimination against black and Hispanic students to warrant a full investigation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is the way to actually increase blacks and Hispanics at TJ:

Eliminate essays, teacher recommendations and SIS. Only people with money and SAHM will benefit from having these.

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

SIS: Family needs SAHM to give rides to various places and spend money to go to programs, prepare for competitions and contests etc. Definite disadvantage to those that lack money or do not have SAHM. Eliminating this will help blacks, Hispanics.

Eliminating the above will level the playing field and increase blacks and Hispanics into TJ and also reduce the chance of admitting weak students and also reduce the chance of rejecting strong students just because the family lacked funds or SAHM to build up SIS resume, build relationships with teachers (for recommendation letters) or attend elite and expensive essay prep program.

Totally Agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the way to actually increase blacks and Hispanics at TJ:

Eliminate essays, teacher recommendations and SIS. Only people with money and SAHM will benefit from having these.

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

SIS: Family needs SAHM to give rides to various places and spend money to go to programs, prepare for competitions and contests etc. Definite disadvantage to those that lack money or do not have SAHM. Eliminating this will help blacks, Hispanics.

Eliminating the above will level the playing field and increase blacks and Hispanics into TJ and also reduce the chance of admitting weak students and also reduce the chance of rejecting strong students just because the family lacked funds or SAHM to build up SIS resume, build relationships with teachers (for recommendation letters) or attend elite and expensive essay prep program.

Totally Agree.

+2

I'd add that one should eliminate the holistic b-s that is essentially a rationale to admit students who cannot make it based purely the test score.

Let us not lower the standards at this great school by admitting kids who are less than qualified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the way to actually increase blacks and Hispanics at TJ:

Eliminate essays, teacher recommendations and SIS. Only people with money and SAHM will benefit from having these.

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

SIS: Family needs SAHM to give rides to various places and spend money to go to programs, prepare for competitions and contests etc. Definite disadvantage to those that lack money or do not have SAHM. Eliminating this will help blacks, Hispanics.

Eliminating the above will level the playing field and increase blacks and Hispanics into TJ and also reduce the chance of admitting weak students and also reduce the chance of rejecting strong students just because the family lacked funds or SAHM to build up SIS resume, build relationships with teachers (for recommendation letters) or attend elite and expensive essay prep program.

Totally Agree.

? That suggestion above, eliminating all the subjective measures, would decrease, not increase black/Hispanics at TJ. Then they would have to compete on grades and test scores and you would have even more Asians.

[Anonymous]

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case. Middle school does not encourage parent volunteers and I don't know anyone who was giving middle school teachers presents at all, let alone on a regular basis. Teachers see kids almost every day. They see how hard they work in class, they see how regularly they do their homework, they see how quickly a student understands a new concept when it is presented in class. Teacher recommendations give the committee insight into how the child learns on a daily, ongoing basis, as opposed to what the student can answer on a test on one day.
At TJ, the kids need to be able to do the work every day. They have to learn new ideas and concepts right there in class and the classes move quickly onto new things. A middle school teacher will have some insight into how a child handles these situations which can help the committee see how well-suited the child is for TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

No, the point was that AAP would "have a problem" if a lawsuit (based on what is unclear) was filed. And that is just wrong. Every kid in the system has every chance in the world to get in; those who don't either didn't try or are not sufficiently well qualified.

This is absolute B.S. Why do you think the school board has spent so much time talking about lack of equity in AAP for the past two years? The child of a lower income or immigrant family with little understanding of English or lack of resources for prepping, getting a psychologist administered WISC etc. does not have every chance in the world. Certainly not when compared to all the upper class kids in some school districts whose parents know how to work the system. Whether someone "tries" to get into an advanced academic program should have nothing to do with it. The smartest kids should get in. Period. Clearly you've bought into the warped nature of this system for whatever reasons. Perhaps because it worked fine for your kid.

But they have to DEMONSTRATE their "smartness." You can't get in just because you are smart. It's for people whose track record shows they are academically motivated.

So rich people or those with the resources to showcase their child's above averageness multiple ways -- like WISC scores that don't even hit the 130 threshold and middling CogAT even with prep should have an advantage over people who don't have the resources or know-how for their kid? I don't think so. I just think there should be limitations to make it more equitable. It's not. That's a travesty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the way to actually increase blacks and Hispanics at TJ:

Eliminate essays, teacher recommendations and SIS. Only people with money and SAHM will benefit from having these.

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

SIS: Family needs SAHM to give rides to various places and spend money to go to programs, prepare for competitions and contests etc. Definite disadvantage to those that lack money or do not have SAHM. Eliminating this will help blacks, Hispanics.

Eliminating the above will level the playing field and increase blacks and Hispanics into TJ and also reduce the chance of admitting weak students and also reduce the chance of rejecting strong students just because the family lacked funds or SAHM to build up SIS resume, build relationships with teachers (for recommendation letters) or attend elite and expensive essay prep program.

Totally Agree.

+2

I'd add that one should eliminate the holistic b-s that is essentially a rationale to admit students who cannot make it based purely the test score.

Let us not lower the standards at this great school by admitting kids who are less than qualified.

I agree. Results of both fewer blacks/Hispanics AND admission of weaker students (remediation issue) are from having essays, SIS, LOR. Not only the changes in admission policies to increase blacks/Hispanics actually LOWER their admission numbers, these changes also lowered quality of the students by admitting ill prepared students and by rejecting suitable/strong students. And the school board wonders why all the efforts to increase blacks and Hispanics are not working and why they have to deal with math/science remediation as well.

Eliminating all of these essays, SIS and LOR will remove the subjective effects of the holistic review as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

No, the point was that AAP would "have a problem" if a lawsuit (based on what is unclear) was filed. And that is just wrong. Every kid in the system has every chance in the world to get in; those who don't either didn't try or are not sufficiently well qualified.

This is absolute B.S. Why do you think the school board has spent so much time talking about lack of equity in AAP for the past two years? The child of a lower income or immigrant family with little understanding of English or lack of resources for prepping, getting a psychologist administered WISC etc. does not have every chance in the world. Certainly not when compared to all the upper class kids in some school districts whose parents know how to work the system. Whether someone "tries" to get into an advanced academic program should have nothing to do with it. The smartest kids should get in. Period. Clearly you've bought into the warped nature of this system for whatever reasons. Perhaps because it worked fine for your kid.

But they have to DEMONSTRATE their "smartness." You can't get in just because you are smart. It's for people whose track record shows they are academically motivated.

So rich people or those with the resources to showcase their child's above averageness multiple ways -- like WISC scores that don't even hit the 130 threshold and middling CogAT even with prep should have an advantage over people who don't have the resources or know-how for their kid? I don't think so. I just think there should be limitations to make it more equitable. It's not. That's a travesty.

I think we all know the rich people have many advantages, but that is not something the school district has a lot of control over. What would you have them do - means test all the applicants and put some kind of thumb on the scale to assist poor kids so they don't have to compete just on test scores and grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case. Middle school does not encourage parent volunteers and I don't know anyone who was giving middle school teachers presents at all, let alone on a regular basis. Teachers see kids almost every day. They see how hard they work in class, they see how regularly they do their homework, they see how quickly a student understands a new concept when it is presented in class. Teacher recommendations give the committee insight into how the child learns on a daily, ongoing basis, as opposed to what the student can answer on a test on one day.
At TJ, the kids need to be able to do the work every day. They have to learn new ideas and concepts right there in class and the classes move quickly onto new things. A middle school teacher will have some insight into how a child handles these situations which can help the committee see how well-suited the child is for TJ.

Please, parents are involved in many school activities as volunteers, coaches etc. etc. Parents also contribute to the classroom, school, give presents to school, classroom in variety of ways. I have seen this happen. Some bring snacks/drinks to club meetings, some give rides, some volunteer as coaches/chaperons on field trips etc. Some parents never forget to give presents for Christmas, teacher appreciation, teacher's baby, provide school supplies or equipments etc. I have seen parents cater for the whole school (entire teachers/staff) to show "appreciation". Will stay at home mom who is educated and has financial resources be able to do these or black/Hispanic mother who is working full time and can't be at the school during 9 to 4?

[Anonymous]

Eliminating all of these essays, SIS and LOR will remove the subjective effects of the holistic review as well.

Essays ensure that kids can write, SIS ensures that kids are doing something with their lives outside the classroom, and LORs ensure that teachers have seen the work in the classroom that backs up the test scores. Test scores simply do not tell the whole story about a kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Eliminating all of these essays, SIS and LOR will remove the subjective effects of the holistic review as well.

Essays ensure that kids can write, SIS ensures that kids are doing something with their lives outside the classroom, and LORs ensure that teachers have seen the work in the classroom that backs up the test scores. Test scores simply do not tell the whole story about a kid.

Right, eliminating all these will eliminate distinct advantages for rich whites even though they would help blacks and Hispanics. Can't have that. Do you know that the quality of TJ students decreased after putting more emphasis on these subjective factors? TJ is admitting poorly prepared students due to these subjective factors that puts blacks/Hispanic at a disadvantage and rejecting strong students as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case. Middle school does not encourage parent volunteers and I don't know anyone who was giving middle school teachers presents at all, let alone on a regular basis. Teachers see kids almost every day. They see how hard they work in class, they see how regularly they do their homework, they see how quickly a student understands a new concept when it is presented in class. Teacher recommendations give the committee insight into how the child learns on a daily, ongoing basis, as opposed to what the student can answer on a test on one day.
At TJ, the kids need to be able to do the work every day. They have to learn new ideas and concepts right there in class and the classes move quickly onto new things. A middle school teacher will have some insight into how a child handles these situations which can help the committee see how well-suited the child is for TJ.

Please, parents are involved in many school activities as volunteers, coaches etc. etc. Parents also contribute to the classroom, school, give presents to school, classroom in variety of ways. I have seen this happen. Some bring snacks/drinks to club meetings, some give rides, some volunteer as coaches/chaperons on field trips etc. Some parents never forget to give presents for Christmas, teacher appreciation, teacher's baby, provide school supplies or equipments etc. I have seen parents cater for the whole school (entire teachers/staff) to show "appreciation". Will stay at home mom who is educated and has financial resources be able to do these or black/Hispanic mother who is working full time and can't be at the school during 9 to 4?

Teachers are professionals. They have no reason to write better recommendations for kids whose parents give them "presents." Kids and parents never see these recs, so they will not know what the teacher writes anyway. And, of course, parents help out with extracurriculars as needed. Those activities wouldn't exist many times without parent help, and they benefit all the kids involved, especially the kids whose parents can't help.
I've been around middle and high school kids for a bit over 15 years and I've never seen teachers behave in the way they are being accused of here.

[Anonymous]

If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.