Why is there such a racial/ethnic disconnect with TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teacher recommendations: Those with money and families with SAHM will benefit. Teachers tend to be close and appreciative of SAHM coming to school to volunteer regularly and give presents on a regular basis. Definitely does not help blacks or Hispanics.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case. Middle school does not encourage parent volunteers and I don't know anyone who was giving middle school teachers presents at all, let alone on a regular basis. Teachers see kids almost every day. They see how hard they work in class, they see how regularly they do their homework, they see how quickly a student understands a new concept when it is presented in class. Teacher recommendations give the committee insight into how the child learns on a daily, ongoing basis, as opposed to what the student can answer on a test on one day.
At TJ, the kids need to be able to do the work every day. They have to learn new ideas and concepts right there in class and the classes move quickly onto new things. A middle school teacher will have some insight into how a child handles these situations which can help the committee see how well-suited the child is for TJ.

Please, parents are involved in many school activities as volunteers, coaches etc. etc. Parents also contribute to the classroom, school, give presents to school, classroom in variety of ways. I have seen this happen. Some bring snacks/drinks to club meetings, some give rides, some volunteer as coaches/chaperons on field trips etc. Some parents never forget to give presents for Christmas, teacher appreciation, teacher's baby, provide school supplies or equipments etc. I have seen parents cater for the whole school (entire teachers/staff) to show "appreciation". Will stay at home mom who is educated and has financial resources be able to do these or black/Hispanic mother who is working full time and can't be at the school during 9 to 4?

Teachers are professionals. They have no reason to write better recommendations for kids whose parents give them "presents." Kids and parents never see these recs, so they will not know what the teacher writes anyway. And, of course, parents help out with extracurriculars as needed. Those activities wouldn't exist many times without parent help, and they benefit all the kids involved, especially the kids whose parents can't help.
I've been around middle and high school kids for a bit over 15 years and I've never seen teachers behave in the way they are being accused of here.

That's the point. How would you know how they behave or what they write if one can't see what they write. The teachers are not being accused of anything unethical. The point is that chances are, the applicants the teacher knows better whether through more direct interactions or more interactions through parents or students/parents the teacher appreciates for volunteering/contributing would probably come across better without outright lying. It's just human nature to be appreciative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Of course well-off whites will be against getting rid of these subjective components because they benefit the most even at the expense of most capable yet not well-off black and Hispanic applicants. Just saying they want to see more blacks and Hispanics at TJ is easy until it adversely impacts them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

Maybe they could change the name of TJ to TP for Test Prep. The current TJ is painful to see for those who knew TJ when it was a school for happy, well-rounded, normal kids.

[Anonymous]

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports?

Do you actually know any TJ kids or are you just spewing a stereotype? Every kid I know at TJ had and continue yo have a wide variety of interests beyond academics including (gasp!) music, art and sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

Of course activities are important. No one is arguing kids should not engage in non-academic activities. You missed the point. The point is let's not use them to make the playing field uneven in admission to schools like TJ to exclude black/Hispanic kids who deserve to be there but SHUT OUT because they did not and could not engage in theses activities. Also, the typical activities that go on the SIS are Mathcounts, AMC, computer programming, Science Olympiad, science fairs, CTY, robotics club etc. not art, music, drama not to say that they are not important just that they are not likely to show up on SIS.

Why the assumption 100% of the kids prep. for the TJ test. The TJ test is relatively EASY. It is not a difficult test for a bright smart 8th grader who deserves to be at TJ. There are applicants who do not do any prep except try the sample test. Your assumption is incorrect since good portion of TJ kids did not prep. AND the test is not difficult.

A smart capable kid (but without resources or means) faces 4 obstacles to gain entrance to TJ: test/GPA, SIS, essay and teacher rec. If SIS, essay, teacher rec were removed, the kid only has one obstacle remaining (assuming good GPA), the test. A capable and smart applicant who lacked resources or support of parent has a better chance to do well in comparison to other applicants (more fair assessment) meaning performance on the test even without prepping if the kid is smart and deserving of admission. This does not mean all incoming freshmen will lack non-academic activities. Many of them will have these activities; they just couldn't use them to game the system. It just removes multiple obstacles that are unfair for many black and Hispanic potential applicants.

[Anonymous]

My son is Asian and he received 50/50 on verbal section and 49/50 on math section of the TJ test without any prep.

[Anonymous]

"Now it appears that FCPS is attempting to keep down the number of Asians at TJ. The top math student at Kilmer AAP center was denied admission this year. He is ethnically Chinese and so brilliant at math that he was allowed to take the exclusive American Invitational Mathematics Examination (AIME) open only to the top math high school students across the country. He qualified to take the AIME despite being only in the 8th grade. He has had a love for math that has been demonstrated throughout elementary and middle school. He is also a straight A student. This young man is not the only Asian to be denied admission to TJ this year. Other exceptional Asian students at Kilmer Middle school, Rocky Run Middle school, and other schools were also denied admission. It is difficult to find reasons for their rejections. They are outstanding students who have excelled in math and science."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports?

Do you actually know any TJ kids or are you just spewing a stereotype? Every kid I know at TJ had and continue yo have a wide variety of interests beyond academics including (gasp!) music, art and sports.

Yes, I do, my child goes there and I would like it to stay the way it is. I think it would change, and not in a positive way, if test scores were the only criteria for acceptance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports?

Do you actually know any TJ kids or are you just spewing a stereotype? Every kid I know at TJ had and continue yo have a wide variety of interests beyond academics including (gasp!) music, art and sports.

Yes, I do, my child goes there and I would like it to stay the way it is. I think it would change, and not in a positive way, if test scores were the only criteria for acceptance.

Sorry, here's the rest of the quote from above. You can see I'm advocating keeping the admission process the way it is.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Now it appears that FCPS is attempting to keep down the number of Asians at TJ. The top math student at Kilmer AAP center was denied admission this year. He is ethnically Chinese and so brilliant at math that he was allowed to take the exclusive American Invitational Mathematics Examination (AIME) open only to the top math high school students across the country. He qualified to take the AIME despite being only in the 8th grade. He has had a love for math that has been demonstrated throughout elementary and middle school. He is also a straight A student. This young man is not the only Asian to be denied admission to TJ this year. Other exceptional Asian students at Kilmer Middle school, Rocky Run Middle school, and other schools were also denied admission. It is difficult to find reasons for their rejections. They are outstanding students who have excelled in math and science."

Ugh... More BS anecdotes to prove something that is statically shown to not be the case. Not everyone gets in, regardless of ethnicity. Just because they didn't get in AND they were Asian, doesn't mean it was BECAUSE they are Asian. Correlation does not suggest causation.

The kids may be lacking in many other variables. Every year there is a handful of 'math whiz' kids that don't get in. And again, acceptance is not ONLY based on math and science GPA or test scores or both.

I promise they're were many 'other exceptional non-Asian students at Kilmer, Rocky Run, etc' that also didn't get in. And I guess to beat a dead horse, not ever 'exceptional' child is actually exceptional, in fact my definition, most kids aren't exceptional - so there are a bunch of parents that are either blind, in denial or liars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worry is about rich families having an advantage, then relying on test scores alone would certainly not be the way to go. Very expensive test prep programs which have kids practicing for the test questions for two years or more before the test are out of reach for kids without resources. If admittance were only by test scores, rich families would double or triple up on the test prep programs and TJ would end up full of kids who have engaged with no outside interests beyond practicing test questions. That doesn't sound like an outcome that would be good for anyone.

But at least those smart black/Hispanic kids who do not need prepping to do well on these tests would get admitted whereas those kids under the current system would be denied due to weak SIS, essay (due to subjective grading, strong writer may get poor score under the current system) and LORs. Do not assume there are no black/Hispanic kids who would do well even without prepping.

Do we really want a high school in which most of the students spent their middle school years with no outside activities but test prep? No music, no art, no sports? High school is about more than academics, even a school with an academic focus. Kids need to learn about a variety of topics and they learn and benefit from being around other kids who excel in a variety of areas. A kid with a great GPA and a high test score who is also engaged with sports or drama or music or art or any combination of the plethora of possible outside activities is just way more impressive and interesting than the kid who just goes to school and then goes home to practice test questions.

And, let's face it, when kids test prep, you will have kids getting higher scores than they would have without prepping. That skews the results so that, when you count down from highest to lowest, kids who got higher scores than they would have without prepping can end up higher on the list than a kid who takes the test and gets a great score without prepping. Who do you think might end up needing help and tutors once accepted? The kid who needed tutoring to get in, or the kid who understood the material without outside assistance?

Of course activities are important. No one is arguing kids should not engage in non-academic activities. You missed the point. The point is let's not use them to make the playing field uneven in admission to schools like TJ to exclude black/Hispanic kids who deserve to be there but SHUT OUT because they did not and could not engage in theses activities. Also, the typical activities that go on the SIS are Mathcounts, AMC, computer programming, Science Olympiad, science fairs, CTY, robotics club etc. not art, music, drama not to say that they are not important just that they are not likely to show up on SIS.

Why the assumption 100% of the kids prep. for the TJ test. The TJ test is relatively EASY. It is not a difficult test for a bright smart 8th grader who deserves to be at TJ. There are applicants who do not do any prep except try the sample test. Your assumption is incorrect since good portion of TJ kids did not prep. AND the test is not difficult.

A smart capable kid (but without resources or means) faces 4 obstacles to gain entrance to TJ: test/GPA, SIS, essay and teacher rec. If SIS, essay, teacher rec were removed, the kid only has one obstacle remaining (assuming good GPA), the test. A capable and smart applicant who lacked resources or support of parent has a better chance to do well in comparison to other applicants (more fair assessment) meaning performance on the test even without prepping if the kid is smart and deserving of admission. This does not mean all incoming freshmen will lack non-academic activities. Many of them will have these activities; they just couldn't use them to game the system. It just removes multiple obstacles that are unfair for many black and Hispanic potential applicants.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Now it appears that FCPS is attempting to keep down the number of Asians at TJ. The top math student at Kilmer AAP center was denied admission this year. He is ethnically Chinese and so brilliant at math that he was allowed to take the exclusive American Invitational Mathematics Examination (AIME) open only to the top math high school students across the country. He qualified to take the AIME despite being only in the 8th grade. He has had a love for math that has been demonstrated throughout elementary and middle school. He is also a straight A student. This young man is not the only Asian to be denied admission to TJ this year. Other exceptional Asian students at Kilmer Middle school, Rocky Run Middle school, and other schools were also denied admission. It is difficult to find reasons for their rejections. They are outstanding students who have excelled in math and science."

Ugh... More BS anecdotes to prove something that is statically shown to not be the case. Not everyone gets in, regardless of ethnicity. Just because they didn't get in AND they were Asian, doesn't mean it was BECAUSE they are Asian. Correlation does not suggest causation.

The kids may be lacking in many other variables. Every year there is a handful of 'math whiz' kids that don't get in. And again, acceptance is not ONLY based on math and science GPA or test scores or both.

I promise they're were many 'other exceptional non-Asian students at Kilmer, Rocky Run, etc' that also didn't get in. And I guess to beat a dead horse, not ever 'exceptional' child is actually exceptional, in fact my definition, most kids aren't exceptional - so there are a bunch of parents that are either blind, in denial or liars.

"The American Invitational Mathematics Examination (AIME) is a 3-hour integer answer contest. Students will qualify for the AIME and can participate in the AIME only if they score 120 or above or finish in the top 2.5% of the AMC 10, or if a student scores 100 or above or finishes in the top 5% of the AMC 12. The AIME is administered in schools in March." Less than 0.1% of 8th graders qualify for AIME.