Why is there such a racial/ethnic disconnect with TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

I've never heard of these expensive programs talked about here, but that doesn't really mean anything since I'm not in the market for this type of program. Such programs are quite unnecessary, though. All a child needs is a library card, which is free. The best writers spend lots of time reading. Kids who read a lot will pick up a lot about what constitutes good writing. While reading one good book after another, kids will absorb vocabulary, grammar, and usage without even realizing how much they are learning. The ability to write clearly is important throughout life, not merely for the application to a selective school.
My child did not need expensive tutoring to get accepted to TJ and neither did many of his friends.

Same here. My kid did not even prepare. He just went and sat the test. Maybe things are a lot more competitive now.

+1 mine also

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

No, the point was that AAP would "have a problem" if a lawsuit (based on what is unclear) was filed. And that is just wrong. Every kid in the system has every chance in the world to get in; those who don't either didn't try or are not sufficiently well qualified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quite funny how you always have posters claiming their kids never prepped for TJ. I don't recall any posters admitting their kids prepped. Nothing wrong with prepping whether for essays or test or SIS or whatever. I find this funny since My kid is at TJ and my kid tells me there are kids at TJ who did prep for TJ. In fact, lot of kids have tutors, study groups, study programs etc. to help the kids get decent/good grades since it's sink or swim there. So it is funny that kids prep to get in and kids continue with prep to stay. I guess those parents whose kids did prep do not post here. Oh and, my kid did not prep for TJ and does engage in extra/outside prep for classes either.

PP here who posted that kid did not prep. Quite honestly, I contacted TJ to find out if there was a prep course similar to the SAT and was told there was not. Keep in mind that he was part of the class of 2005 and entered TJ in 2001. So it was not so much that I did not want him to prep but more that there was nothing available at that time as far as I could ascertain.

So it is not a brag.....................

You are funny. The TJ situation was vastly different 10+ years ago, and your post, while truthful, is completely irrelevant today. For one, the cottage prep industry was in its infancy, and there were fewer goose families in the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

I've never heard of these expensive programs talked about here, but that doesn't really mean anything since I'm not in the market for this type of program. Such programs are quite unnecessary, though. All a child needs is a library card, which is free. The best writers spend lots of time reading. Kids who read a lot will pick up a lot about what constitutes good writing. While reading one good book after another, kids will absorb vocabulary, grammar, and usage without even realizing how much they are learning. The ability to write clearly is important throughout life, not merely for the application to a selective school.
My child did not need expensive tutoring to get accepted to TJ and neither did many of his friends.

Same here. My kid did not even prepare. He just went and sat the test. Maybe things are a lot more competitive now.

Quite funny how you always have posters claiming their kids never prepped for TJ. I don't recall any posters admitting their kids prepped. Nothing wrong with prepping whether for essays or test or SIS or whatever. I find this funny since My kid is at TJ and my kid tells me there are kids at TJ who did prep for TJ. In fact, lot of kids have tutors, study groups, study programs etc. to help the kids get decent/good grades since it's sink or swim there. So it is funny that kids prep to get in and kids continue with prep to stay. I guess those parents whose kids did prep do not post here. Oh and, my kid did not prep for TJ and does engage in extra/outside prep for classes either.

Oh, we know lots of kids who took prep classes for a couple of years before the TJ test and need tutors and outside help to stay in. My child is a student there now and did not prep for the test and does his own studying without tutors or other outside help. He spends two hours a day in sports practices and that's where we've met a lot of the kids who do well there without the outside prep and tutoring. It makes sense that the kids who can manage the hours needed to do a sport can also manage the work at TJ since they tend to be very self-motivated and self-disciplined kids.

Sorry to bust your bubble but but most of the top students at TJ are not jocks. There may be few but most are not into Sports.

[Anonymous]

PP you are actually wrong. There are a lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things.

[Anonymous]

So true. TJ does well at a few individual sports like swimming and tennis. Most of their team sports are not competitive at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP you are actually wrong. There are a lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things.

Please re-read the post. There are lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things. In fact, I think TJ kids are engaged in more sports and clubs etc. on average than most other high school kids. However, most of the TOP students are not doing sports. They are doing Olympiads, Math competitions, Quizbowl, Computer programming, Post-AP physics/Physics team, research (Siemens, Intel), debate etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you are actually wrong. There are a lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things.

Please re-read the post. There are lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things. In fact, I think TJ kids are engaged in more sports and clubs etc. on average than most other high school kids. However, most of the TOP students are not doing sports. They are doing Olympiads, Math competitions, Quizbowl, Computer programming, Post-AP physics/Physics team, research (Siemens, Intel), debate etc.

Sounds like you think anything a TJ student does deserves to be called a club or activity. Another example of the arrogance of TJ parents. Small wonder so many of the kids are arrogant and don't know how to relate to others who haven't been part of the TJ/AAP bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you are actually wrong. There are a lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things.

Please re-read the post. There are lot of kids active in sports and other time consuming things. In fact, I think TJ kids are engaged in more sports and clubs etc. on average than most other high school kids. However, most of the TOP students are not doing sports. They are doing Olympiads, Math competitions, Quizbowl, Computer programming, Post-AP physics/Physics team, research (Siemens, Intel), debate etc.

Sounds like you think anything a TJ student does deserves to be called a club or activity. Another example of the arrogance of TJ parents. Small wonder so many of the kids are arrogant and don't know how to relate to others who haven't been part of the TJ/AAP bubble.

How is the posting arrogant? How are TJ parents arrogant? You are not making any sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Essay: There are expensive programs that teach either one on one or in small groups exactly how to ace the essay. These are quite expensive (run by whites not the ones run by Chinese or Koreans which are mostly ineffective) and only benefit ones with lot of money. Certainly will not help most blacks or Hispanic. It is unfair for these groups.

I've never heard of these expensive programs talked about here, but that doesn't really mean anything since I'm not in the market for this type of program. Such programs are quite unnecessary, though. All a child needs is a library card, which is free. The best writers spend lots of time reading. Kids who read a lot will pick up a lot about what constitutes good writing. While reading one good book after another, kids will absorb vocabulary, grammar, and usage without even realizing how much they are learning. The ability to write clearly is important throughout life, not merely for the application to a selective school.
My child did not need expensive tutoring to get accepted to TJ and neither did many of his friends.

Same here. My kid did not even prepare. He just went and sat the test. Maybe things are a lot more competitive now.

Quite funny how you always have posters claiming their kids never prepped for TJ. I don't recall any posters admitting their kids prepped. Nothing wrong with prepping whether for essays or test or SIS or whatever. I find this funny since My kid is at TJ and my kid tells me there are kids at TJ who did prep for TJ. In fact, lot of kids have tutors, study groups, study programs etc. to help the kids get decent/good grades since it's sink or swim there. So it is funny that kids prep to get in and kids continue with prep to stay. I guess those parents whose kids did prep do not post here. Oh and, my kid did not prep for TJ and does engage in extra/outside prep for classes either.

Oh, we know lots of kids who took prep classes for a couple of years before the TJ test and need tutors and outside help to stay in. My child is a student there now and did not prep for the test and does his own studying without tutors or other outside help. He spends two hours a day in sports practices and that's where we've met a lot of the kids who do well there without the outside prep and tutoring. It makes sense that the kids who can manage the hours needed to do a sport can also manage the work at TJ since they tend to be very self-motivated and self-disciplined kids.

Sorry to bust your bubble but but most of the top students at TJ are not jocks. There may be few but most are not into Sports.

The kids who excel in both academics and sports at TJ tend to have great college acceptances. They have demonstrated to the college admission officers that they can do well academically while managing other activities at the same time. MIT has accepted more than a few TJ athletes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually one of the reasons that Asians in the US are overrepresented in academic achievements is because you have a unbalanced sample set. The majority of the Asians who come to the US do so to come for college, graduate school or to accept high tech or otherwise highly skilled positions. It is very difficult for Asians to emigrate to the US except for academic reasons. Many other races have alternative means of emigrating to the US, but education and highly skilled positions are the vast majority of the opportunities for Asians. So, you have an exceptionally highly intelligent subset of Asians that become US immigrants and end up staying in the US. The average and even slightly above average Asian students don't come to the US. These Asians then breed offspring who tend to be more intelligent than average for their race. That plus most Asian cultures stress academic achievement as a standard make them more competitive in academic situations.

The reason that TJ and selective schools tend to be overrepresented vs other public schools is that Asians place such a high stress on education that many of them will try to send their children to advance or magnet programs even if they have to move to do so and fewer leave their children in public schools, so you have a higher percentage of the Asian population going to select schools leaving fewer in the public school system.

Actually many Asians come to US based on family connections more so than based on employment. In addition, Asians who come to US on student visas to attend colleges/graduate schools are on temporary visas so they must leave US once schooling is complete unless they are offered permanent positions and offer of permanent employment is not that common due to their lack of permanent resident status/citizenship/clearance etc.

As for relocating, that may happen in some cases but it is not common due to high cost and other issues such as obtaining new jobs etc. with relocating.

In my experience (my parents are Asians who came over in the 1950's), many of the Asians who come over for family connections do so for education and are sponsored by the family members. They come to attend school here and stay and they do tend to be among the cream of the crop. I've seen many, many families where the smartest of the cousins comes to the US and are sponsored by the one family member who came over in the previous generation (the uncle or aunt). That family member sponsors them, they study and they stay and they end up sponsoring the next of the cousins/nieces/nephews who will come over. So your two categories, those with family connections and those coming for education include a largely overlapping subset of the more intelligent members of large families who can stay beyond student visas. I've personally seen hundreds of such candidates.

This is purely anecdotal, and ifmyou came from a educated family, chances are you were surrounded by other educated families...hence your perspective being what it is.

Asians are no exception to any other ethnic group, there are some very bright immigrants mixed among a much larger distribution of not so bright.

People travel to the US on any visa they can get. UC Berkley only has but so many seats, so Asians, Africans, Europeans, etc will take a visa to small state schools or community colleges if they have to. Arguing that only the brightest come on educational visas is about the dumbest argument I've heard on Asians being over represented in educational settings. There are a handful is systemic issues that make foreign students more attractive to schools. A good example is foreign students from Asian are crowding out American Asians, and American Asians largely outperform their foreign Asian counterparts (see CA higher ed). The real issue is tuition, foreign students pay full freight, and often their governments subsidize their tuition and in some cases their board - for example China rents an entire apartment complex in CA and even hires Chinese chaperones and cooks for Chinese students at of the CA system schools.

For selective secondary schools - public and private - many are test based. Tests are largely teachable, and in some ethnic communities they do significant multi-year drilling for these tests. In Asian communities they have what are called JJs, which are basically live questions from 'recall.' The idea of test prep isn't new, and has permeated so much that even the SAT is trying to address both the ethnic divide and the parental income divide by offering high quality free test prep. So yes, there is an ethnic/cultural component but also a socio economic component - and that largely means that Asians and whites are both over represented in educational settings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not just politicians and judges and teachers at TJ. What about police officers, they should be 16% Asians. I think it's about 1 or 2% Asian. What about the county employees, they should be representative of the Asian population of the county and be 16% not 2 or 3%. What about all the employees that work at the Gatehouse? They should be 16% Asians. It's outrageous there is such a disproportionate gap in virtually everything except for a place where semi-meritocracy is practiced. If this is not a demonstrable evidence of disparate impact I don't know what is. There should be an immediate Complaint filed with the Civil Rights Division of the US Justice Department alleging racial discrimination alleging wide spread and pervasive discrimination.

Why is discrimination against Asian Americans ok and acceptable. Why shouldn't there be proportional representation of Asians in all facets of life? Why is over presentation of Asian (magnet school) always a problem (especially if Asians have no say in the matter and 0 influence in policy making) but under presentation is never a problem? Why the double standard?

In fact, the admission process was changed several times to increase blacks/Hispanics at TJ:

It was originally purely based on test scores and GPA from the beginning to 2006
In 2007, the process changed to "holistic" review with essays, teacher recs and SIS (subjective components) added to make the process subjective and allow admissions office wiggle room to admit more blacks/Hispanics. (This led to weaker math/science students being admitted and ultimately led to the 2011-2012 teacher protest regarding weak math students being admitted and remediation issue)
It was changed again and the different components were given designated weight in 2010 with subjective components making up 65-75% depending on how you derive the weight to further increase blacks/Hispanics
It was changed again in 2013 to make the process "holistic review" once again since ALL the tinkering to reduce Asians and increase blacks/Hispanic were not working adequately. Also, non-math/science grades were considered in the final selection (change from before) to further try to reduce Asians and increase non-Asians.

Guess what would happen if we went back to the ORIGINAL admissions process of only using test scores and GPAs. We would have more stronger students but we would also have more Asians. That's the problem.

*1

It was not solely based on GpA and test scores up until 2006.

It was a two cut process. First cut was test scores and GPA (including non math and sciences grades) Second cut was after teacher recommendations, essays, etc.

Where does this mythology come from? TJ application process has always been well-rounded. And all the changes over the years have been tweaks, not major shifts. Efforts to increase black and Hispanics have been largely outreach and sponsorship based, opposed to changing admission criteria.
The Asian ethnic community has done a terrific job making parents and students aware of TJ and providing significant test prep opportunities - which help them move large numbers of applicants to the '2nd cut' pool. It is a numbers game folks. If applicants are 60% Asian, admissions are likely to have a not too dissimilar distribution. If applicants were 60% black! I am sure you'd see a majority or large plurality of black students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This from PP is very true and sad:

" The non-Asian minority kids in TJ's old neighborhood get bounced around from one overcrowded school to another, so that other children can attend a school that's getting a multi-million dollar renovation to look like a faux U. Va. Of course, there aren't many applications from non-Asian minorities. They see who gets in. After a while banging your head against the brick wall stops being fun."

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is.

I do think whether it's TJ or perhaps AAP, a lawsuit that would open up the entire screening process to the public -- who gets in and who doesn't -- is long overdue. Frankly, I suspect TJ would come out fine. In AAP, however, FCPS might have problems.

sorry but you are wrong. A student is entitled to an appropriate level of education, the are not entitled to inclusion in the gifted class. AAP would come out fine.

But not all students are getting an "appropriate" amount of education. That['s the point.

No, the point was that AAP would "have a problem" if a lawsuit (based on what is unclear) was filed. And that is just wrong. Every kid in the system has every chance in the world to get in; those who don't either didn't try or are not sufficiently well qualified.

This is absolute B.S. Why do you think the school board has spent so much time talking about lack of equity in AAP for the past two years? The child of a lower income or immigrant family with little understanding of English or lack of resources for prepping, getting a psychologist administered WISC etc. does not have every chance in the world. Certainly not when compared to all the upper class kids in some school districts whose parents know how to work the system. Whether someone "tries" to get into an advanced academic program should have nothing to do with it. The smartest kids should get in. Period. Clearly you've bought into the warped nature of this system for whatever reasons. Perhaps because it worked fine for your kid.

[Anonymous]

Asians are discriminated against in TJ admissions:

http://thebullelephant.com/tjhsst-discriminating-asians/