Abortion messaging needs to change

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

You’re a real crap person. 38 weeks? That doesn’t happen. And also, forcing other humans to risk their life, health, and fertility to carry a baby full term just to watch it die is unfathomable. That’s not your choice to make, and your condescension that they don’t value those much loved and wanted children just because they cannot, for their own reasons whatever they are, carry a dying child to term, is just so cruel. Your scenario is not today’s reality, where a woman discovers a terrible diagnosis of incompatibility with life much earlier than 38 weeks and the untreatable conditions (heart problems are luckily much more treatable now, even in utero) are just that. Risking possible financial ruin, stress on a marriage, health and fertility being risked with each additional day of pregnancy, for a baby that will not live and might suffer for the brief time they do live. It shouldn’t be up to anyone else, not me, not you, not the state, when that’s the situation.

I’m glad your mother found comfort in your sibling’s brief life. But your story is just that, a story and not relevant to another woman’s life and choices.

It’s euthanasia.
I don’t support euthanasia.
I believe on a deep level that we should not take human lives, ever. We cannot always save them. Sometimes we can only provide pain relief and palliative care. We should also respect life by not prolonging it with invasive treatments. But we should not be actively taking lives.

Are you a vegan? Do you support banning guns? Do you support getting rid of the military?

No, because animals are not humans.
Yes I support banning the types of guns that are used in mass shootings. Individual citizens should not own weapons of mass destruction.
I reluctantly concede that having military is necessary for our country to defend itself, and therefore saves lives (in theory) Whether it has been used that way or really in any good way for the past several decades is another question.

But most abortions aren’t performed in self defense.
I’m not even totally against abortion. I’m for easy access to early abortions, regardless of the reason. If it’s truly a matter of saving a mother’s life over the fetus, then I choose the saving the mother. But I can’t get on board with the idea that a fetus is absolutely not human until it is born.

So what if animals aren’t human — they are sentient beings and you are eating murder victims. You are fine with taking lives so long as they’re lives you deem less than.

We all take “lives” to an extent, unless you are a Jain.
I guess I don’t consider all lives to be the same, do any of us? I eat chicken and squish mosquitos without guilt. But a human fetus is not a chicken or a mosquito.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

What I choose is mine of your effing concern.

Isn’t it? If you saw someone beating their child, would you say that is none of your concern?

Child, you are the one cruising for a bruising if you think you are going to tell my kid what she can and cannot do with her uterus. Stay out of these decisions for other women. They are not your concern.

I truly don’t care what anyone does with their uterus.
But I can understand the position of wanting to protect innocent human life. I don’t personally identify as pro-life, but I’m aware that some who do, have a sincerely held belief that a person becomes a person some time before birth (I don’t agree with my conservative cousin, for example, when that is) and that by ending the pregnancy you are ending a life. You are not doing your movement any favors by refusing to even discuss or acknowledge it.

We discuss it all the time. The compromise of roe was where it landed and was in place for almost 50 years.

It also protected fertility clinics and healthcare practitioners. Now some are being driven out of certain states and increasing the risk for women in the state that need obstetrical care.

The anti abortion side took their ignorant simplistic view of abortion and smashed it with a sledgehammer and began the destruction of the entire maternal healthcare systems in some states.

Who is “we”?
The “hands off my body” protesters?

[Anonymous]

Grow up, OP. You understand the options and what is at stake. It isn’t anyone’s job to sugarcoat things for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

What I choose is mine of your effing concern.

Isn’t it? If you saw someone beating their child, would you say that is none of your concern?

Child, you are the one cruising for a bruising if you think you are going to tell my kid what she can and cannot do with her uterus. Stay out of these decisions for other women. They are not your concern.

I truly don’t care what anyone does with their uterus.
But I can understand the position of wanting to protect innocent human life. I don’t personally identify as pro-life, but I’m aware that some who do, have a sincerely held belief that a person becomes a person some time before birth (I don’t agree with my conservative cousin, for example, when that is) and that by ending the pregnancy you are ending a life. You are not doing your movement any favors by refusing to even discuss or acknowledge it.

We discuss it all the time. The compromise of roe was where it landed and was in place for almost 50 years.

It also protected fertility clinics and healthcare practitioners. Now some are being driven out of certain states and increasing the risk for women in the state that need obstetrical care.

The anti abortion side took their ignorant simplistic view of abortion and smashed it with a sledgehammer and began the destruction of the entire maternal healthcare systems in some states.

Who is “we”?
The “hands off my body” protesters?

Just stay out of private reproductive decisions entirely unless it is your own uterus involved. Simple.

[Anonymous]

OP, I’m an atheist and agree with you to a large extent. I am personally and politically supportive of full abortion rights—but I live in reality. Abortion is scary, sad and unfortunate for most people in the world. It should be rare. It shouldn’t be glorified.

The left’s insistence that none of this can be said out loud cost us Roe. And telling every woman who empathizes with a fetus that she is against women’s rights—when viability is getting earlier and earlier…it makes no sense. Anyone who has had a miscarriage or seen a fetal scan knows it’s natural to attach emotion to abortion. When the tiny percentage of women who really don’t feel anything regarding abortion (Chelsea handler etc) become the dominant voice, you lose credibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We discuss it all the time. The compromise of roe was where it landed and was in place for almost 50 years.

No it wasn't. Look up Doe v Bolton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

Ok let’s say you are in a burning building. To your right is a 2 year old child. To your left is 40 embryos in Petri dishes. You can only save one. Which one do you choose? If you would save 1 life instead of 40, then you know it is not the same.

Dude you are asking the wrong person. I never made claims about “saving the embryos” nor have I taken any position that all abortions are murder.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post, but you seem to be saying there is no line to draw between child, baby, newborn, and fetus.

I am very sorry about your brother and what your family went through.
I am not trying to draw a comparison here because it is not the same. But I see Instagram influencers decide to carry a fetus to term after being told they will only just weeks or months to live and that they will be extremely uncomfortable and in pain during that time. Those parents spend that time posting the poor child all over the internet for likes and follows. It is heartbreaking. I respect their right to carry the baby to term and I can’t predict what choice I would make in that position. From the outside looking in, it seems that abortion might have been the merciful choice.

I’ve seen those type of parents on the internet. I didn’t get the impression that they were doing it for likes and follows, but that it was their way of processing, even if it seems strange to us.

The abortion option seems merciful only because the killing/death is hidden, happening inside the mother’s body. Would post-birth euthanasia of a baby also be considered merciful? It seems arbitrary that an abortion prior to birth is merciful but euthanasia a few hours later, or a few days later is seen differently. Or is it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I’m an atheist and agree with you to a large extent. I am personally and politically supportive of full abortion rights—but I live in reality. Abortion is scary, sad and unfortunate for most people in the world. It should be rare. It shouldn’t be glorified.

The left’s insistence that none of this can be said out loud cost us Roe. And telling every woman who empathizes with a fetus that she is against women’s rights—when viability is getting earlier and earlier…it makes no sense. Anyone who has had a miscarriage or seen a fetal scan knows it’s natural to attach emotion to abortion. When the tiny percentage of women who really don’t feel anything regarding abortion (Chelsea handler etc) become the dominant voice, you lose credibility.

No one made Chelsea Handler the spokesperson for all women. She is free to share her experience. Which is very different than the experience of millions of other women. We all have our own individual circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I’m an atheist and agree with you to a large extent. I am personally and politically supportive of full abortion rights—but I live in reality. Abortion is scary, sad and unfortunate for most people in the world. It should be rare. It shouldn’t be glorified.

The left’s insistence that none of this can be said out loud cost us Roe. And telling every woman who empathizes with a fetus that she is against women’s rights—when viability is getting earlier and earlier…it makes no sense. Anyone who has had a miscarriage or seen a fetal scan knows it’s natural to attach emotion to abortion. When the tiny percentage of women who really don’t feel anything regarding abortion (Chelsea handler etc) become the dominant voice, you lose credibility.

Not OP, but thank you for putting this into words better than I can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

What I choose is mine of your effing concern.

Isn’t it? If you saw someone beating their child, would you say that is none of your concern?

Child, you are the one cruising for a bruising if you think you are going to tell my kid what she can and cannot do with her uterus. Stay out of these decisions for other women. They are not your concern.

I truly don’t care what anyone does with their uterus.
But I can understand the position of wanting to protect innocent human life. I don’t personally identify as pro-life, but I’m aware that some who do, have a sincerely held belief that a person becomes a person some time before birth (I don’t agree with my conservative cousin, for example, when that is) and that by ending the pregnancy you are ending a life. You are not doing your movement any favors by refusing to even discuss or acknowledge it.

We discuss it all the time. The compromise of roe was where it landed and was in place for almost 50 years.

It also protected fertility clinics and healthcare practitioners. Now some are being driven out of certain states and increasing the risk for women in the state that need obstetrical care.

The anti abortion side took their ignorant simplistic view of abortion and smashed it with a sledgehammer and began the destruction of the entire maternal healthcare systems in some states.

Who is “we”?
The “hands off my body” protesters?

Just stay out of private reproductive decisions entirely unless it is your own uterus involved. Simple.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any anyway, if killing a special needs child because the family can’t cope is not ok, is it ok to kill a baby? And if it’s not ok to kill a newborn baby, why is it ok to kill a fetus?

And if you are ok with killing a special needs fetus at 38 weeks, are you also ok with killing healthy fetuses at 38 weeks?

I am not ok with either.
I am also not ok that collectively speaking we do not give humanity to fetuses who are found to have defects or disabilities. I can certainly understand and have compassion for families that would choose to end such pregnancies, but that does not make it right. We need to do better to support those families raising special needs families. We might better do so if more of us could actually see them.

And if you tell me that I can’t possibly understand the plight of these families, I will tell you that I do, because I was in such a family. I saw my brother being born, and then I saw him diagnosed with a fatal heart defect days later. We were extremely poor, my parents couldn’t afford a hospital birth let alone the bills that came later after the diagnosis. We took my brother home to receive palliative care and he died a few days later. It was hard for all of us, and horrible for my mom. But not one of us can imagine that it would have been less horrible for her to abort.
We treasured our few days with my brother.

I gave birth to healthy children but have families around us where this was not so. I cannot imagine those children not being here, or being less valuable. Remember that any person could become disabled at any time in their life. That does not diminish their humanity.

If it’s not ok to kill a fetus why is it ok to kill a zygote? You tell us.

We have to draw a line somewhere.
The line I would draw is when the fetus is capable of living outside the mother.

I'll go one better. If it's not okay to.kill s fetus why does the GOP think it's fine to massacre children with AR 15's. Why don't you want to protect the fetus once it's born and is a living, breathing human?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Liberal Christian Woman. There are many of us out there, and we are not even rare. We just aren’t being heard or considered on the topic of abortion, so every now and then I feel the need to point out the fact that we exist. I am not asking anyone to agree with my beliefs. I am just asking that you consider the fact that the messaging on both sides does not reflect the beliefs of so many of us. It is (unbelievably!) a close election, and here’s a demographic that is untapped.

The right is telling us that abortion is always murder. Period. Some say there are exceptions, but their policies do not reflect that. Democrats say that abortion=women’s rights, women’s health. Period. Many of us are somewhere in the middle.

I honestly wish the democrats would stop talking about abortion. Anyone who is open to understanding how disastrous the GOP is for women’s rights, health, and safety has already turned. the women who are left in the GOP will never see any gray area when it comes to abortion. They see it as the baby’s right to life in all circumstances. This is a deeply rooted, religious belief, and no policy or politician will change it. As a Christian Democrat, I don’t entirely disagree with them, but only when it comes to abortion based solely on lifestyle choice. I wish we could find a way to separate abortion as a lifestyle choice from the rest of it (health of mom and baby, rape and incest, family planning, procedures like D&Cs). But we lump it all together. D’s messaging really stinks when it comes to women’s rights. They let the GOP ramble on about 3rd trimester and post-birth abortions without even attempting to shut that down. I am in the legal, safe, and rare camp. Many Christians are. The message needs to be that the decision is made by women with input from their chosen support group, which could include partner, family, doctor, clergy. Yes, women need to be told by democrats that they support them leaning on clergy instead of politicians.

In all other aspects, I agree with Democrats - BC, women’s rights, abortion due to rape, incest, or medical conditions.

So many of us are perplexed by the following Trump has among Christians. Biden has been a devout Catholic his entire life. Trump isn’t even a real Christian and in no way lives in the spirit of Jesus, to put it mildly. But many Christians see it this way - Abortion is simply worse than anything he has done. Because they believe abortion=murder, and it doesn’t get any worse than murder. It is a very black and white issue for them. But a lot of us Christians do not fall in line with this. We just need messaging that considers those of us in the middle when it comes to abortion.

I am Christian and conservative leaning and I am pro choice and nothing will ever change my mind on this. I personally don’t understand choosing an abortion once a baby has reached the point of viability outside the womb nor do I understand using abortion repeatedly BUT my personal understanding doesn’t need to be considered by other women.

I also think there are more conservative leaning and conservative women who also are pro choice but don’t say it out loud. I also truly believe that even the most die hard pro life woman wavers when actually faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We discuss it all the time. The compromise of roe was where it landed and was in place for almost 50 years.

No it wasn't. Look up Doe v Bolton.

Kavanaugh: Senator, I said that it is settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis. And one of the important things to keep in mind about Roe v. Wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years, as you know, and most prominently, most importantly, reaffirmed in Planned Parenthood v. Casey in 1992.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I’m an atheist and agree with you to a large extent. I am personally and politically supportive of full abortion rights—but I live in reality. Abortion is scary, sad and unfortunate for most people in the world. It should be rare. It shouldn’t be glorified.

The left’s insistence that none of this can be said out loud cost us Roe. And telling every woman who empathizes with a fetus that she is against women’s rights—when viability is getting earlier and earlier…it makes no sense. Anyone who has had a miscarriage or seen a fetal scan knows it’s natural to attach emotion to abortion. When the tiny percentage of women who really don’t feel anything regarding abortion (Chelsea handler etc) become the dominant voice, you lose credibility.

What are you even talking about? That is 100% not what caused the loss of Roe. If this were about abortion, rather than control, the White Christian Nationalists wouldn’t also be going after contraception. Oh wait, unless you also believe that the only sex that should occur is that between and husband and wife and only for the express purpose of procreation. In which case, we’re not going to agree and this is futile. But let me tell you, if they get a chance they’ll try to legislate this, too.

Clearly you aren’t a Democrat and think “the left” is Chelsea Handler. Wtf. Since when was she anyone of import? What’s the point of this conversation? People who believe life begins at conception and that any abortion is murder aren’t going to be swayed by anything, and especially if you think Chelsea Handler speaks for anyone or anything.

Also, keep out of our bedrooms and bodies. Don’t start none won’t be none.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I’m an atheist and agree with you to a large extent. I am personally and politically supportive of full abortion rights—but I live in reality. Abortion is scary, sad and unfortunate for most people in the world. It should be rare. It shouldn’t be glorified.

The left’s insistence that none of this can be said out loud cost us Roe. And telling every woman who empathizes with a fetus that she is against women’s rights—when viability is getting earlier and earlier…it makes no sense. Anyone who has had a miscarriage or seen a fetal scan knows it’s natural to attach emotion to abortion. When the tiny percentage of women who really don’t feel anything regarding abortion (Chelsea handler etc) become the dominant voice, you lose credibility.

No one made Chelsea Handler the spokesperson for all women. She is free to share her experience. Which is very different than the experience of millions of other women. We all have our own individual circumstances.

DP but I think you might be missing the point. Of course we all have our own individual circumstances. Most women’s understanding about their bodies, their rights, their feelings about pregnancy is deep and nuanced. But the narrative that goes out into the world is dominated by the loudest voices, even if those voices are not nuanced and do not represent the more normative experiences. And that is ultimately hurting us.

That is happening with a lot of issues that people care about, not just this one.