Why Was My Son Deferred from Duke ED?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are so misguided. Absolutely parents plan the journey. What sports to play and which activities to do. It is a 100% planned!

You are embarrassingly wrong. I have one of those kids that loves to argue with people so reads up on topics he is interested in, follows his passions with his extracurriculars and that comes through when you know him and on his app, and is academically driven and self-motivated. Also plays a travel sport. We actually encourage him to dial it back, but that’s not his nature. There may be kids who do it for packaging, but I would think by high school it would be almost impossible to force your kid into ECs, etc.

+1 by high school kids might get a little help or nudge by parents, but most of the high achieving ones are able to do so on their own accord. At that point the standard has been set internally and changing that would take a lot of help from the parents, which mostly doesn’t happen

I agree that most of these kids are hard chargers on their own - but don't fool yourself - there are schemer parents out there that absolutely make a difference. For example - have kids play squash for example and travel oodles just to be ranked in a very very low volume sport to get another leg up on their legacy admissions. There are other examples too. There's certainly more schemes out there beyond Varsity Blues. Plenty of customers in the college game.

Agree here. DS has a friend with a mom who did this with both her kids. Of course, she claims that she is in no way involved with any of her kids' lives, but I've overheard enough from their friend group to know that is not the case. Look, I'm even fairly friendly with the mom and I know what she has done. It's low key, but it is not the "I'm not involved in the process." And yes, the kid played squash, asked for all his BM gifts to go towards his "passion" project (which just happened to be where his mom was volunteering), etc. Did similarly for the musically inclined daughter, who had a similar passion project. Of course passion was never used, but come on, even the friends knew it.

[Anonymous]

Squash, lax tennis, hockey....so many sports are for well off kids. The sports that recruit out of high school like track, football, etc are the way to go for an athlete without that money advantage. Music needs money for lessons but I think fine art can still produce a portfolio out of high school art.

Math robotics, science research are great options for kids that are in schools with these programs that don't necessarily have an extra charge. But again, wealthy districts are likely to have these programs

The game is rigged to kids with resources. But they have to have the motivation and drive and interest to take advantage. That is intrinsic and can't be purchased.

[Anonymous]

If the student is not good enough to be recruited to play for Duke, the sports will not help much with admission.

[Anonymous]

OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...

near-perfect GPA,

Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.

all 5s and 4s on AP exams,

Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.

two sport athlete and captain of one sport,

I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.

student body president,

I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.

editor in chief of school newspaper,

Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.

head student liaison for arts nonprofit,

I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.

a summer internship with a congressman,

See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.

leadership volunteering position at library....

TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.

...with book preservation and restoration experience,

Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)

good awards, etc.

Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')

had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.

This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

[Anonymous]

^^PP above...reason for a deferral, I should have said...reason that he didn't get an ED acceptance...I note that he hasn't been rejected... and I hope, given his hard work and desire to attend Duke, that he does get admitted later in this cycle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...

near-perfect GPA,

Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.

all 5s and 4s on AP exams,

Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.

two sport athlete and captain of one sport,

I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.

student body president,

I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.

editor in chief of school newspaper,

Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.

head student liaison for arts nonprofit,

I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.

a summer internship with a congressman,

See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.

leadership volunteering position at library....

TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.

...with book preservation and restoration experience,

Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)

good awards, etc.

Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')

had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.

This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

I had much the same thoughts. I also wonder if AOs are bored out of their brains reading through all this stuff. You can read many similar profiles on college confidential. I wrote the bit about colleges looking for rodeo riders and nail polish inventors. I wasn't making that up - those were examples given by an AO when we toured an elite state university.

[Anonymous]

Who knows? Who cares?

[Anonymous]

Great profile, but he didn't go to a third world country and hold a hungry baby for a photo op. That would have gotten him in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, sorry about Duke, your son sounds incredibly capable and hopefully he can get accepted later. But getting a full scholarship at a school like UNC is no small feat. I know a young man who got into Duke, Yale, and Wharton last year but turned all of them down for the Morehead Cain scholarship at UNC (full ride). On the other hand I also know of a fine young woman who got into Princeton, Columbia, and got the Morehead Cain last year too, but turned all of those down to be a full-pay student at Duke. So, preference matters too if you have the ability to pay, but know that a full scholarship to UNC is a very good deal

This is a good point but it’s worth noting that the Morehead Cain is prestige in itself. It looks like OP’s son got another scholarship from UNC which might be more generic/not as well known. Morehead Cain is a big deal like UVA Jeffersons

[Anonymous]

The Average GPA for some colleges ranked well into the 60s is close to 4.0 UW.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...

near-perfect GPA,

Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.

all 5s and 4s on AP exams,

Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.

two sport athlete and captain of one sport,

I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.

student body president,

I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.

editor in chief of school newspaper,

Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.

head student liaison for arts nonprofit,

I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.

a summer internship with a congressman,

See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.

leadership volunteering position at library....

TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.

...with book preservation and restoration experience,

Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)

good awards, etc.

Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')

had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.

This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

NP. We can nitpick this till the cows come home (I realize you are being helpful and answering OP’s questions), but there are many students admitted to Duke with a profile just like OP’s kid’s. We want to find distinguishing reasons/logic/answers to the college admissions process and why student X was admitted by student Y was not, but it is offen very indistinguishable and frankly arbitrary “reasons.”

[Anonymous]

Op there could be many reasons your son was deferred but I would mostly say it’s the state of admissions - ever since schools went test optional, applications at schools have gone through the roof and predictability of admissions has gone down. Plus your son applied to Duke, it’s harder than the Ivy League to get accepted to and many strong applicants from DMV private schools will be applying

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great profile, but he didn't go to a third world country and hold a hungry baby for a photo op. That would have gotten him in.

That was so 2010. I didn't think kids did that anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who knows? Who cares?

And yet here you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...
near-perfect GPA
Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.
all 5s and 4s on AP exams, Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.
two sport athlete and captain of one sport,
I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.
student body president
I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.
editor in chief of school newspaper,
Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.
head student liaison for arts nonprofit,
I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.
a summer internship with a congressman,
See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.
leadership volunteering position at library...
TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.
..with book preservation and restoration experience,
Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)
good awards, etc
Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')
had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.
This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

NP. We can nitpick this till the cows come home (I realize you are being helpful and answering OP’s questions), but there are many students admitted to Duke with a profile just like OP’s kid’s. We want to find distinguishing reasons/logic/answers to the college admissions process and why student X was admitted by student Y was not, but it is offen very indistinguishable and frankly arbitrary “reasons.”

I'm the PP you were responding to. Thanks for recognizing that I was trying to be helpful and actually answer OP's questions...before the 'but' part. How do you know there are many students admitted ED this year that are 'just like OP's kid?' I think that's an assumption...which is part of the problem--this sort of cliché definition of what impressive ECs are. Times have changed (rapidly). It may have appeared to the admin committee that OP's son is a high-quality applicant, but not necessarily following his own passions--just being formulaic.

And besides, if you think there are many kids 'with a profile just like OP's kid's' admitted to Duke (ED, 2022/3), that would mean that Duke would happily invite many kids like him from the DMV region. From his same part of the DMV, even. Because I would be willing to bet that geographic diversity is important, and the kid with the high GPA/scores applying from Minneapolis or San Diego would have a better chance than one from the DMV, or northern New Jersey, etc. Geographic diversity is not an indistinguishable and arbitrary factor. So you are forgetting that when applying from an area like the DMV, competition is stiffer. Similarly, an applicant from Laurel may have an advantage over a similar stats-ECs applicant from a Bethesda public school from which dozens of kids apply to Duke each year (45 from B-CC alone last year. 2 accepted). https://moco360.media/2022/09/13/here-are-the-colleges-where-bethesda-area-high-school-grads-applied-got-accepted-and-enrolled/

And OP's son may still be admitted, as things aren't over yet. Sometimes it's important in life to have experiences like this to bring in a little humility...ie to recognize that despite one's strengths, there are still other talented peers out there in the world. OP's son is really interested in Duke so if he's admitted (fingers crossed for you and him, OP), I suspect he will be very, very thankful and relieved, and never take it for granted. OP: If he's not accepted, it may be a little tough to go to UNC because the Duke-UNC rivalry is very strong, and it would be a shame if, in this context, he felt that he'd still rather be at Duke. Not the end of the world, but something to anticipate that might need a little extra understanding/support.