Why Was My Son Deferred from Duke ED?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...
near-perfect GPA
Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.
all 5s and 4s on AP exams, Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.
two sport athlete and captain of one sport,
I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.
student body president
I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.
editor in chief of school newspaper,
Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.
head student liaison for arts nonprofit,
I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.
a summer internship with a congressman,
See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.
leadership volunteering position at library...
TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.
..with book preservation and restoration experience,
Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)
good awards, etc
Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')
had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.
This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

NP. We can nitpick this till the cows come home (I realize you are being helpful and answering OP’s questions), but there are many students admitted to Duke with a profile just like OP’s kid’s. We want to find distinguishing reasons/logic/answers to the college admissions process and why student X was admitted by student Y was not, but it is offen very indistinguishable and frankly arbitrary “reasons.”

I'm the PP you were responding to. Thanks for recognizing that I was trying to be helpful and actually answer OP's questions...before the 'but' part. How do you know there are many students admitted ED this year that are 'just like OP's kid?' I think that's an assumption...which is part of the problem--this sort of cliché definition of what impressive ECs are. Times have changed (rapidly). It may have appeared to the admin committee that OP's son is a high-quality applicant, but not necessarily following his own passions--just being formulaic.

And besides, if you think there are many kids 'with a profile just like OP's kid's' admitted to Duke (ED, 2022/3), that would mean that Duke would happily invite many kids like him from the DMV region. From his same part of the DMV, even. Because I would be willing to bet that geographic diversity is important, and the kid with the high GPA/scores applying from Minneapolis or San Diego would have a better chance than one from the DMV, or northern New Jersey, etc. Geographic diversity is not an indistinguishable and arbitrary factor. So you are forgetting that when applying from an area like the DMV, competition is stiffer. Similarly, an applicant from Laurel may have an advantage over a similar stats-ECs applicant from a Bethesda public school from which dozens of kids apply to Duke each year (45 from B-CC alone last year. 2 accepted). https://moco360.media/2022/09/13/here-are-the-colleges-where-bethesda-area-high-school-grads-applied-got-accepted-and-enrolled/

And OP's son may still be admitted, as things aren't over yet. Sometimes it's important in life to have experiences like this to bring in a little humility...ie to recognize that despite one's strengths, there are still other talented peers out there in the world. OP's son is really interested in Duke so if he's admitted (fingers crossed for you and him, OP), I suspect he will be very, very thankful and relieved, and never take it for granted. OP: If he's not accepted, it may be a little tough to go to UNC because the Duke-UNC rivalry is very strong, and it would be a shame if, in this context, he felt that he'd still rather be at Duke. Not the end of the world, but something to anticipate that might need a little extra understanding/support.

BCC only had 2/45 accepted to Duke last year? Yikes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for sympathy but any insight would be appreciated. My son was told he would be a good candidate for Ivy League/Duke by his school counselor and applied ED to Duke with a 36 ACT, near-perfect GPA, all 5s and 4s on AP exams, two sport athlete and captain of one sport, student body president, editor in chief of school newspaper, head student liaison for arts nonprofit, a summer internship with a congressman, leadership volunteering position at library with book preservation and restoration experience, good awards, etc. My son had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback. We figured maybe there was something else wrong with his application (maybe a recommendation letter was unexpectedly weak) or that he should’ve gone for another school he liked that would be a bit easier to be accepted like Cornell or Johns Hopkins, but over the past few days he was accepted to UNC Chapel Hill with a full scholarship, USC with scholarship pending, and UMich all out of state. He’s still disappointed about Duke but the UNC scholarship is very enticing and he’s still in the running for Duke, although we’re not sure about the chances of being accepted after a deferral. Inputs are welcome!

The simple truth is because while his accomplishments are impressive, everyone applying has equally or even more impressive credentials.

This is not true. Very few are student body president, captain of a sport team,editor-in-chief, and a 36 ACT score. President of student body & editor-in-chief are complementary positions that make sense.

OP: The rejection is personal. Not sure why, but I suspect that something in one or more essays negatively affected admissions readers.

Actually, student body President and student newspaper editor are not complementary at all. By their nature, those roles are adversarial— well, not adversarial, but a newspaper editor is not simultaneously going to be a politician. It’s unethical journalistically. So honestly, claiming to have both of those positions is going to look weird.

[Anonymous]

The world may never know !

[Anonymous]

We will never know why one particular applicant was not accepted, by one particular school. PPs have it right - there are thousands of qualified, talented applicants.
Zeroing in on the "why" of one applicant's result? To me, seems pointless.
Not personal. Feels like it it is, but it's not. Too many great applicants and a great many factors go into these decisions. They are not "right" or "wrong" decisions - they are what they are, it's not a matter of justice.
To me, also not helpful to say "my child got into Yale but not UVA, how is this possible?". It just is. For many reasons. One result bears no relation to another result. These are common outcomes.
No one is entitled to admission, anywhere, no matter what.
Good luck OP, it sounds like your child will have a wonderful outcome and already has a terrific offer as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op there could be many reasons your son was deferred but I would mostly say it’s the state of admissions - ever since schools went test optional, applications at schools have gone through the roof and predictability of admissions has gone down. Plus your son applied to Duke, it’s harder than the Ivy League to get accepted to and many strong applicants from DMV private schools will be applying

+1 there’s no way to predict a Duke acceptance unless you have a gold medal from an international Olympiads, and even then Duke might say no for fit reasons

[Anonymous]

OP, there can be the "be careful what you wish for" in these scenarios. A friend's DD was deferred from Duke some years back. One of the parents was legacy and fairly involved in school. The DD had a great record, very similar to your DS, so it was, as it remains in college admissions, a numbers game. Kid and parents hustled and hustled and hustled and DD finally got in during RD. And going to Duke ended up not being such a great decision for the kid, both academically (great grades but maybe not as close to faculty as would have liked) and socially. The dad recently told DH that maybe a top NESCAC or one of the PA SLACs would have been a better move.

I would have never imagined that would have been the case due to all the effort put into the kid gaining admission, so was a little eye-opening for me. g

Good luck to your DS and hope everything works out!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for sympathy but any insight would be appreciated. My son was told he would be a good candidate for Ivy League/Duke by his school counselor and applied ED to Duke with a 36 ACT, near-perfect GPA, all 5s and 4s on AP exams, two sport athlete and captain of one sport, student body president, editor in chief of school newspaper, head student liaison for arts nonprofit, a summer internship with a congressman, leadership volunteering position at library with book preservation and restoration experience, good awards, etc. My son had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback. We figured maybe there was something else wrong with his application (maybe a recommendation letter was unexpectedly weak) or that he should’ve gone for another school he liked that would be a bit easier to be accepted like Cornell or Johns Hopkins, but over the past few days he was accepted to UNC Chapel Hill with a full scholarship, USC with scholarship pending, and UMich all out of state. He’s still disappointed about Duke but the UNC scholarship is very enticing and he’s still in the running for Duke, although we’re not sure about the chances of being accepted after a deferral. Inputs are welcome!

The simple truth is because while his accomplishments are impressive, everyone applying has equally or even more impressive credentials.

This is not true. Very few are student body president, captain of a sport team,editor-in-chief, and a 36 ACT score. President of student body & editor-in-chief are complementary positions that make sense.

OP: The rejection is personal. Not sure why, but I suspect that something in one or more essays negatively affected admissions readers.

Actually, student body President and student newspaper editor are not complementary at all. By their nature, those roles are adversarial— well, not adversarial, but a newspaper editor is not simultaneously going to be a politician. It’s unethical journalistically. So honestly, claiming to have both of those positions is going to look weird.

Agreed 100%.

Plus they're the kind of positions where if they're actually worth being impressed about, they can't both be done at the same time. There aren't enough hours in the day.
So clearly if one kid has both of them, they're just kind of figurehead positions.

The newspaper editor at our school easily puts in 15-20 hours a week. It's a huge job. Student government president is less but also a big commitment. There's no way one kid could do both.

[Anonymous]

People are more surprised about this than the "Current Situation - Not Thrilled" post (where the kid was deferred from Purdue)! That was Purdue. This is Duke. Like... what.

OP, are you upset because you thought Duke was a way easier admit than the Ivies? That it wasn't a lottery because this school is not in the NE, within a random sports conference?

Some schools-- any rejection is not worth a discussion. This includes Duke. Yet somehow we are on page 16.

They have everything they could want and more in terms of stats/ECs/etc. They cherry pick the class they want. Anyone can get rejected. Especially a non-Olympic athlete who did not cure cancer.

Your son is amazing and will do great things. Focus on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, adding my congratulations on your son's achievements especially the UNC scholarship, which is impressive.
You did ask for feedback on what, if anything, on his profile was the possible reason for a rejection, and I would join the commenters who suggested that his profile might come across as too packaged and therefore not as authentic...breaking it down...some elements (Your list of your DS's achievements is something to be proud of, I should first emphasize,)...
near-perfect GPA
Perhaps most other applicants had actually-perfect GPAs. My DD has straight A's (including in honors etc) and I think grade inflation is pretty significant in MCPS...that is, if my DD can get straight As, I think a LOT of other kids at her school can too.
all 5s and 4s on AP exams, Duke's ED application pool may have had many people with all 5s, and not just 5s and 4s.
two sport athlete and captain of one sport,
I skipped a couple of pages of this thread so didn't see whether you specified the sport, but as others mentioned, just being varsity or even captain doesn't necessarily make a difference. If he is not in the running to be a recruited athlete, this would be a 'nice to have' extracurricular, I should think.
It shows he's well-rounded, certainly; it just might not blow the admissions team away.
student body president
I imagine that since most schools have student governments, there are lots of "student body presidents" who then consider themselves student leaders, and then may also be aiming to the top schools like Duke.
Like some PPs, I kind of think that some leadership extracurriculars are a bit cliche nowadays. Does your son have a passion for change, did he do something really different as the student body president during his time? If not, the admissions committee could have perceived your son as going for the title without the drive behind the government.
editor in chief of school newspaper,
Same as above...this is sort of a cliche leadership-type role; does your son also have a love for journalism? the other extracurriculars don't seem to point that way.
head student liaison for arts nonprofit,
I can't tell what this is, but it could be perceived as another resume-padding activity.
a summer internship with a congressman,
See above comments on student gov and editor in chief. This sounds prestigious, but it's again sort of cliche. And if your son didn't really tie in his student gov role and the internship in his essays, it appears as something he did because he thought it looked good. This internship tells me that his family or school was connected enough to get him an internship.
leadership volunteering position at library...
TBH, whatever this is sounds like an easy position to get, and to carry out, and that it is sort of 'puffed up' as another illustration of outstanding leadership.
..with book preservation and restoration experience,
Interesting! Does he want to use these skills to pursue history/archival work, science [conservation], or something else related? If not, it is a little offbeat, potentially even unique among the ED applicant pool, but seems like he had the chance to get exposed to this, sort of happenstance. Which doesn't help build a picture of his genuine passions (see above, arts non profit vs congressional internship/etc.)
good awards, etc
Without knowing the specific awards, it's hard to know whether these are rare awards. There are a lot of awards out there and I imagine they are sort of 'icing on the cake' for a good candidate, but don't make an applicant stand out among stiff competition (who will also have their own 'good awards')
had multiple people look over his essays, including the optional ones (academic experience and agreements/disagreements prompts) and he received good feedback.
This is one thing that caught my eye. Either 1) he had so many people look over them and tried super-hard to make these essays sounded polished and impressive that the essays lost their authenticity... or perhaps even sounded coached;
or 2) they were not (1), but they were fine, and just didn't stand out (i.e., the 'good feedback' was from people who weren't in a position to attest that these were great essays);
or 3) They were great essays, but the above list of grades/extracurriculars were not strong enough and the essays couldn't compensate.

NP. We can nitpick this till the cows come home (I realize you are being helpful and answering OP’s questions), but there are many students admitted to Duke with a profile just like OP’s kid’s. We want to find distinguishing reasons/logic/answers to the college admissions process and why student X was admitted by student Y was not, but it is offen very indistinguishable and frankly arbitrary “reasons.”

I'm the PP you were responding to. Thanks for recognizing that I was trying to be helpful and actually answer OP's questions...before the 'but' part. How do you know there are many students admitted ED this year that are 'just like OP's kid?' I think that's an assumption...which is part of the problem--this sort of cliché definition of what impressive ECs are. Times have changed (rapidly). It may have appeared to the admin committee that OP's son is a high-quality applicant, but not necessarily following his own passions--just being formulaic.

And besides, if you think there are many kids 'with a profile just like OP's kid's' admitted to Duke (ED, 2022/3), that would mean that Duke would happily invite many kids like him from the DMV region. From his same part of the DMV, even. Because I would be willing to bet that geographic diversity is important, and the kid with the high GPA/scores applying from Minneapolis or San Diego would have a better chance than one from the DMV, or northern New Jersey, etc. Geographic diversity is not an indistinguishable and arbitrary factor. So you are forgetting that when applying from an area like the DMV, competition is stiffer. Similarly, an applicant from Laurel may have an advantage over a similar stats-ECs applicant from a Bethesda public school from which dozens of kids apply to Duke each year (45 from B-CC alone last year. 2 accepted). https://moco360.media/2022/09/13/here-are-the-colleges-where-bethesda-area-high-school-grads-applied-got-accepted-and-enrolled/

And OP's son may still be admitted, as things aren't over yet. Sometimes it's important in life to have experiences like this to bring in a little humility...ie to recognize that despite one's strengths, there are still other talented peers out there in the world. OP's son is really interested in Duke so if he's admitted (fingers crossed for you and him, OP), I suspect he will be very, very thankful and relieved, and never take it for granted. OP: If he's not accepted, it may be a little tough to go to UNC because the Duke-UNC rivalry is very strong, and it would be a shame if, in this context, he felt that he'd still rather be at Duke. Not the end of the world, but something to anticipate that might need a little extra understanding/support.

BCC only had 2/45 accepted to Duke last year? Yikes

On par with Whitman 2/44 and better than Churchill 2/61. These schools are just killing it in admissions.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thank you all for the kind words and advice. We’re definitely looking ahead to other schools and I know that there’s a lot of luck involved. My son is still hoping for Duke but already really likes the options he has so far, and several of the schools with decisions coming up. We will send a letter of continued interest and hope to give some updates.

And for the people who were wondering about the level of commitment for his extracurriculars. Being student body president has not been a huge time commitment from him - he seems to work on that type of stuff when taking a break from other work that involves more mental power for him. Being editor in chief however is a bigger time commitment for him. And yes, his congressional internship and library volunteering are over the summer, while being a nonprofit liaison is during the school year. His sports are two different seasons so the burden isn’t as large as some of you may have thought. He gets an average of 6-7 hours of sleep on weekdays and 7-9 on weekends, which is manageable for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are more surprised about this than the "Current Situation - Not Thrilled" post (where the kid was deferred from Purdue)! That was Purdue. This is Duke. Like... what.

OP, are you upset because you thought Duke was a way easier admit than the Ivies? That it wasn't a lottery because this school is not in the NE, within a random sports conference?

Some schools-- any rejection is not worth a discussion. This includes Duke. Yet somehow we are on page 16.

They have everything they could want and more in terms of stats/ECs/etc. They cherry pick the class they want. Anyone can get rejected. Especially a non-Olympic athlete who did not cure cancer.

Your son is amazing and will do great things. Focus on that.

I am not upset, I was just looking for feedback because the school counselor thought he would be a good match for Duke. I agree that an acceptance cannot be expected after seeing some of the numbers people have posted though. We did not go into this thinking Duke would be easier to get accepted to, we know the stature of Duke and that it’s more difficult to get into than many ivies. We were just told that our son was an incredibly strong applicant, that’s all. But I’ve seen the bigger picture here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are more surprised about this than the "Current Situation - Not Thrilled" post (where the kid was deferred from Purdue)! That was Purdue. This is Duke. Like... what.

OP, are you upset because you thought Duke was a way easier admit than the Ivies? That it wasn't a lottery because this school is not in the NE, within a random sports conference?

Some schools-- any rejection is not worth a discussion. This includes Duke. Yet somehow we are on page 16.

They have everything they could want and more in terms of stats/ECs/etc. They cherry pick the class they want. Anyone can get rejected. Especially a non-Olympic athlete who did not cure cancer.

Your son is amazing and will do great things. Focus on that.

I am not upset, I was just looking for feedback because the school counselor thought he would be a good match for Duke. I agree that an acceptance cannot be expected after seeing some of the numbers people have posted though. We did not go into this thinking Duke would be easier to get accepted to, we know the stature of Duke and that it’s more difficult to get into than many ivies. We were just told that our son was an incredibly strong applicant, that’s all. But I’ve seen the bigger picture here.

PP you responded to. I know this process can be incredibly disappointing. He was and is a great match for Duke. It's just the numbers. Competitive past the point of absurdity. The UNC opportunity is amazing, I hope your son seriously considers it. I hope Duke works out as well and glad to hear he has many good options regardless. Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are more surprised about this than the "Current Situation - Not Thrilled" post (where the kid was deferred from Purdue)! That was Purdue. This is Duke. Like... what.

OP, are you upset because you thought Duke was a way easier admit than the Ivies? That it wasn't a lottery because this school is not in the NE, within a random sports conference?

Some schools-- any rejection is not worth a discussion. This includes Duke. Yet somehow we are on page 16.

They have everything they could want and more in terms of stats/ECs/etc. They cherry pick the class they want. Anyone can get rejected. Especially a non-Olympic athlete who did not cure cancer.

Your son is amazing and will do great things. Focus on that.

I am not upset, I was just looking for feedback because the school counselor thought he would be a good match for Duke. I agree that an acceptance cannot be expected after seeing some of the numbers people have posted though. We did not go into this thinking Duke would be easier to get accepted to, we know the stature of Duke and that it’s more difficult to get into than many ivies. We were just told that our son was an incredibly strong applicant, that’s all. But I’ve seen the bigger picture here.

If DC is your oldest than you may be less aware of how much college admissions has changed over the last three years. The HS class of 2020 had the end of their senior year upended but their college admissions process was fairly similar to preceding years. But very different for HS class of 2021, then 2022 and, possibly now, 2023. Some college counselors have made that pivot and others haven't. Even within a school, the counselors may have different perspectives. Also, there is a chance that the counselor may have said your DS may be a good match, but you may not have heard as clearly that it really is a numbers game with these highly selective schools.

Yes, as one of the PPs mentioned, your DS is amazing and he will have great options, maybe even Duke in the end.

[Anonymous]

Actually, student body President and student newspaper editor are not complementary at all. By their nature, those roles are adversarial— well, not adversarial, but a newspaper editor is not simultaneously going to be a politician. It’s unethical journalistically. So honestly, claiming to have both of those positions is going to look weird.


Agreed 100%.

Plus they're the kind of positions where if they're actually worth being impressed about, they can't both be done at the same time. There aren't enough hours in the day.
So clearly if one kid has both of them, they're just kind of figurehead positions.

The newspaper editor at our school easily puts in 15-20 hours a week. It's a huge job. Student government president is less but also a big commitment. There's no way one kid could do both.

You do get that your anecdote is just that? My DC is EIC and one of three student govt officers. DC loves policy, so these are two great outlets to explore that. DC spends many hours on the paper, fewer on student govt because it requires less, but certainly isn’t checking the box with either activity. DC definitely does not get near enough sleep, though.

[Anonymous]

OP if there is any takeaway for you… Duke is one of the top schools in the world, and getting admitted to a school like that can never be taken for granted. Especially with how application numbers have gone up during CoVID