Why Does Johns Hopkins Get Destroyed in Cross-Admit Battles with Peer Schools?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Because it's not peers with those schools?

Hopkins is overranked because of federal funding for its medical research and Applied Physics Lab. While I'm sure the medical research has some carryover for undergrad students in biological sciences, it doesn't do much for anything outside of those subjects. The APL is based a 30 minutes drive off campus so it's not of much use to physics/engineering undergrad students.

The Ivies are Ivies, and therefore recognized globally. Duke is well-recognized nationally in every industry due to it's breadth of competencies and also basketball. Hopkins is well recognized nationally but primarily as a pre-med school.

How could you live in this area and be totally ignorant of SAIS?

SAIS is a graduate school and based in DC, again not very relevant to undergrads.

Exactly. Hopkins' best to offer in terms of academics are not very relevant to undergrads. Be it medical school or SAIS. The political science department, which is actually based in Baltimore, is separate from SAIS and the rankings are in the 40s, which is pretty low for a school of its caliber. Definitely not a top-tier department.

Again, you reveal you have no clue what you are talking about. International studies is a different major than poly sci. And here’s the rankings. https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/international-relations-national-security/rankings/top-ranked/

Dear, I absolutely know what I am talking about. Foreign Policy's rankings on IR programs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Top 5 undergrad IR programs

Harvard
Princeton
Stanford
Georgetown
Columbia

and JHU at #15.

Top 5 grad IR programs (Master's degree)

Georgetown
Harvard
JHU
Princeton
Columbia

Top 5 grad IR programs

Havard
Princeton
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago

JHU again at #16

Grad and undergrad, two very different things. Still, my point stands. What is offered at the Homewood campus is very different from its other campuses. There is a big disconnect between grad and undergrad programs at JHU, and it's not uncommon to JHU. Many grad-heavy institutions have a similar problem. Simple as that.

The ranking I cited was obviously different but even using the worst one you could find, undergrad IR at Hopkins is T15. Sorry it is so difficult for you to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

T15 out of 50 schools does not make it a leading program. On the other hand, SAIS masters are indisputably leading programs. I don't disagree with you on that. I am simply saying there is a huge gap between grad and undergrad prestige and JHU's prestige is largely built off its grad, NOT undergrad programs. JHU has invested little in its undergrad programs until recently. And this is reflected in the poor cross-admit preferences between JHU and its peer schools and other lower ranked ivies. I really hope the Bloomberg donation could make a difference in the next 10-15 years, but I don't understand why pointing out this existing problem between perceived and actual prestige is so triggering to some of you staunch defenders.

Perhaps it is obvious to those of us that actually attended the school that you know nothing about it. Just a page or two ago, you didn’t know that international studies was a different major than political science. Now you claim to be an expert on ranking the international studies program. You want to disregard the ranking that had it first for undergrad international studies and focus on the one that found it fifteenth as if that is somehow definitive. It also simply isn’t true that there is no relationship between Hopkins undergrads and SAIS. SAIS professors occasionally teach a course at Homewood (I personally took a course on African politics taught by a SAIS professor as an undergrad), undergrads commonly study abroad at SAIS Europe in Bologna, and there is a five year BA/MA program where three years are at Homewood and two are at SAIS.

The better question is why someone who knows so little about the school is willing to devote so much time to attacking it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because it's not peers with those schools?

Hopkins is overranked because of federal funding for its medical research and Applied Physics Lab. While I'm sure the medical research has some carryover for undergrad students in biological sciences, it doesn't do much for anything outside of those subjects. The APL is based a 30 minutes drive off campus so it's not of much use to physics/engineering undergrad students.

The Ivies are Ivies, and therefore recognized globally. Duke is well-recognized nationally in every industry due to it's breadth of competencies and also basketball. Hopkins is well recognized nationally but primarily as a pre-med school.

How could you live in this area and be totally ignorant of SAIS?

SAIS is a graduate school and based in DC, again not very relevant to undergrads.

Exactly. Hopkins' best to offer in terms of academics are not very relevant to undergrads. Be it medical school or SAIS. The political science department, which is actually based in Baltimore, is separate from SAIS and the rankings are in the 40s, which is pretty low for a school of its caliber. Definitely not a top-tier department.

Again, you reveal you have no clue what you are talking about. International studies is a different major than poly sci. And here’s the rankings. https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/international-relations-national-security/rankings/top-ranked/

Dear, I absolutely know what I am talking about. Foreign Policy's rankings on IR programs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Top 5 undergrad IR programs

Harvard
Princeton
Stanford
Georgetown
Columbia

and JHU at #15.

Top 5 grad IR programs (Master's degree)

Georgetown
Harvard
JHU
Princeton
Columbia

Top 5 grad IR programs

Havard
Princeton
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago

JHU again at #16

Grad and undergrad, two very different things. Still, my point stands. What is offered at the Homewood campus is very different from its other campuses. There is a big disconnect between grad and undergrad programs at JHU, and it's not uncommon to JHU. Many grad-heavy institutions have a similar problem. Simple as that.

The ranking I cited was obviously different but even using the worst one you could find, undergrad IR at Hopkins is T15. Sorry it is so difficult for you to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

Not PP.

T15 in the US is not "one of the leading centers in the world". Again for someone choosing between say Georgetown, Hopkins and Harvard for foreign affairs, it's obvious that attending a school that has a world-renowned foreign affairs school right on campus is better than one where it's more than an hour away.

+1. SAIS really feels like a world of its own, even feels like a separate school in a sense, and very little, almost no interaction between grad and undergrad programs because they are so far away. And I'm saying this having visited both SAIS and Homewood multiple times and know many people on and off campus. Huge disconnection between Homewood and DC/Bologna/Nanjing campuses.

As someone who was actually an undergrad at Hopkins and an international studies major (and not just been on both campuses a few times, whatever that means), that isn’t true for all the reasons in my last post.

[Anonymous]

For the Hopkins undergraduate internal studies rankings, in addition to the number one ranking on prior page, another ranking of it as seventh. https://collegegazette.com/best-international-relations-schools-in-the-us/, and eighth https://collegegazette.com/best-international-relations-schools-in-the-us/

[Anonymous]

I'm in competitive Boston suburb, and you really never hear of any kids thinking of Hopkins as a top choice. I've heard of kids going as athletes, but no one else.

Is it a big top choice for DMV kids? Who's going to Hopkins? why is the acceptance rate so low? I get that it's an amazing school, but I really never hear of it being a place kids in Boston want to go to.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hopkins. 61 , Vandy 39
Hopkins 65, UCLA 35
Hopkins 53, Wash U 47
Hopkins 68, Mich 32
Hopkins 80, Emory 20


Comes close to the lower Ivies, but can’t match them
Hopkins 49 Cornell 51

But as OP would probably admit, since JHU is ranked well above those schools, they aren’t the peers…right?

They aren’t going to beat out the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Who does?

Well we already basically beat out Cornell, so all the Ivies can't be lumped together. And Duke beats out a ton of Ivies for cross-admits, so why can't we? We're ranked higher and we have better prestige than Duke.

Wait, are you talking about Hopkins? JHU undergrad is far less prestigious than Duke.

I'm talking about in general, including undergrad. For undergrad specifically, JHU is currently #7, tied with UPenn, on USNWR. Duke is #10.

Duke hasn't been ranked higher than Hopkins by USNWR, by far the most influential ranking source like it or not, since 2019 (which is a very long time for kids who are 16-18). Historically, I'd say you're probably right that Duke has been more prestigious name wise but the Hopkins association with the med school and hospital gives them something they may actually be the best at, which Duke doesn't have (Stanford and Harvard, for example, would be clearly better than Duke for undergrad and every major grad school). Both are great and elite overall but not in the very top group of universities.

Yes I'm agreeing with you, which is why I said JHU is #7 while Duke is #10 on USNWR which just further highlights JHU is in a different league than Duke. Finally someone else gets it, too many people on here are just ignoring the data.

GW man here again. It's clear you are insecure about Johns Hopkins and how it compares to the Ivy League, Stanford, and Duke for some reason, so let's put this to rest with some more "data." Before I provide the data, just a friendly reminder that none of what I'm about to share takes away from the fact that JHU is a fine institution and a great place for a kid to get an education. This is all stuff that could be found previously on here, but here we go:

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 16% - Yale 84%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Columbia 81%
Johns Hopkins 41% - Dartmouth 59%
Johns Hopkins 49% - Cornell 51%

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Top Non-Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 15% - Stanford 85%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Duke 81%
Johns Hopkins 31% - UChicago 69%
Johns Hopkins 35% - Northwestern 65%
Johns Hopkins 44% - Rice 56%
Johns Hopkins 53% - WashU 47%
Johns Hopkins 61% - Vanderbilt 39%

Now, since you love rankings so much, let's compare undergraduate rankings by the 5 most popular publications.

JHU College Rankings

USNWR: 7
WSJ/THE: 9
Forbes: 18
Niche: 21
Washington Monthly: 23

Cornell College Rankings (picking Cornell as the Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 17
WSJ/THE: 11
Forbes: 16
Niche: 23
Washington Monthly: 8

Duke College Rankings (picking Duke as the non-Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 10
WSJ/THE: 5
Forbes: 9
Niche: 8
Washington Monthly: 5

JHU and Cornell match up pretty well, which is what several people before were saying, but you still seem to think JHU has far surpassed Cornell. All the data shows they're quite neck-and-neck both in rankings and cross-admits. Duke, on the other hand, blows JHU (and Cornell) out of the water in cross-admits and rankings. Interestingly, USNWR is Hopkins' best ranking out of all of them, and it's Duke's worst. It's impressive to say the least that Duke is ranked #10 on USNWR, but as you keep looking at other rankings it gets better and better, meaning USNWR is actually probably lowballing Duke. Are we done now? JHU is still a great school but you reek of insecurity.

Nice compiling. My comment on Cornell's financial aid policy kind of makes the same point without all the numbers. If we felt Hopkins was so much better for undergrad than us as the PP keeps seeming to claim, we would match their financial aid offers but we don't. To summarize and remind: "Cornell is unable to consider evaluating scholarship offers that are not from another Ivy League institution, Stanford, Duke or MIT or offers based on athletics and/or merit. Of the students who said where they planned to enroll, they most often chose the Ivies, Stanford, Duke or MIT over Cornell, Keane said. Princeton and Harvard were each the choice of 7 percent of accepted students who declined Cornell; UPenn and MIT were each the choice of 5 percent; Duke and Yale were each the choice of 4 percent; and Columbia, Stanford and Dartmouth University were each the choice of 3 percent." No mention of Hopkins for the schools outside the Ivy League. I however, have no qualms conceding Stanford, Duke, and MIT are overall better undergraduate institutions than Cornell. I've come to accept that without much difficulty.

I don't care about Cornell's financial aid policy or who they lose students to. The truth is JHU is way past Cornell for undergrad: we're #7 on USNWR while Cornell is way back at #17 on USNWR. That makes Cornell more like a backup option to us instead of an actual peer.

JHU's undergraduate peers are Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, UChicago, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, and WashU. That's the reality that most of the metrics point to, whether you like it or not. You're not quite at the level of Yale, Penn, Duke, Columbia - that's it's own grouping.

This is only the grouping of a foreigner (or someone who didn't go to college) who obsessively reads USNWR.

Here's a real ranking:

Tier 1 - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford
Tier 1A - MIT and Caltech
Tier 2 - Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Northwestern, and begrudgingly Chicago
Tier 3 - Cornell, Penn, Hopkins, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Rice, the good publics like Berkeley and UVA, the good Catholic schools like ND and Georgetown

For SLACs, it's Williams and Amherst, then Swarthmore and maybe Pomona, then everyone else.

Agree with this but just take out ND. Maybe bump WUSTL down to whatever "Tier 4" would be.

The PP who thinks "Yale, Duke, Penn and Columbia" constitute a tier is genuinely bonkers.

Notre Dame is absolutely a peer of schools like Vanderbilt, Cornell, UVA.

I'm sorry can we stop the Notre Dame circle jerk? sure, it's fine if you want an ultra-conservative, catholic, meet-and-marry-your-future-spouse-while-in-college undergrad experience, and if your favorite hobby is watching football. But it is fundamentally near the level of UVA or Cornell.

Cornell
UVA
Notre Dame maybe in the same tier with Vandy?

I have no connection to any of these schools, but Cornell and UVA have serious research, serious law, med, biz grad schools, serious PhD programs. Notre Dame has catholicism and football

[Anonymous]

One thing I really valued as a philosophy major at Hopkins was that I could take graduate seninars as an upper class man. While I didn’t love it socially, I cannot imagine getting a better education anywhere else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm in competitive Boston suburb, and you really never hear of any kids thinking of Hopkins as a top choice. I've heard of kids going as athletes, but no one else.

Is it a big top choice for DMV kids? Who's going to Hopkins? why is the acceptance rate so low? I get that it's an amazing school, but I really never hear of it being a place kids in Boston want to go to.

87 percent of students come from outside Maryland.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Because it's not peers with those schools?

Hopkins is overranked because of federal funding for its medical research and Applied Physics Lab. While I'm sure the medical research has some carryover for undergrad students in biological sciences, it doesn't do much for anything outside of those subjects. The APL is based a 30 minutes drive off campus so it's not of much use to physics/engineering undergrad students.

The Ivies are Ivies, and therefore recognized globally. Duke is well-recognized nationally in every industry due to it's breadth of competencies and also basketball. Hopkins is well recognized nationally but primarily as a pre-med school.

How could you live in this area and be totally ignorant of SAIS?

SAIS is a graduate school and based in DC, again not very relevant to undergrads.

Exactly. Hopkins' best to offer in terms of academics are not very relevant to undergrads. Be it medical school or SAIS. The political science department, which is actually based in Baltimore, is separate from SAIS and the rankings are in the 40s, which is pretty low for a school of its caliber. Definitely not a top-tier department.

Again, you reveal you have no clue what you are talking about. International studies is a different major than poly sci. And here’s the rankings. https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/international-relations-national-security/rankings/top-ranked/

Dear, I absolutely know what I am talking about. Foreign Policy's rankings on IR programs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Top 5 undergrad IR programs

Harvard
Princeton
Stanford
Georgetown
Columbia

and JHU at #15.

Top 5 grad IR programs (Master's degree)

Georgetown
Harvard
JHU
Princeton
Columbia

Top 5 grad IR programs

Havard
Princeton
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago

JHU again at #16

Grad and undergrad, two very different things. Still, my point stands. What is offered at the Homewood campus is very different from its other campuses. There is a big disconnect between grad and undergrad programs at JHU, and it's not uncommon to JHU. Many grad-heavy institutions have a similar problem. Simple as that.

The ranking I cited was obviously different but even using the worst one you could find, undergrad IR at Hopkins is T15. Sorry it is so difficult for you to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

T15 out of 50 schools does not make it a leading program. On the other hand, SAIS masters are indisputably leading programs. I don't disagree with you on that. I am simply saying there is a huge gap between grad and undergrad prestige and JHU's prestige is largely built off its grad, NOT undergrad programs. JHU has invested little in its undergrad programs until recently. And this is reflected in the poor cross-admit preferences between JHU and its peer schools and other lower ranked ivies. I really hope the Bloomberg donation could make a difference in the next 10-15 years, but I don't understand why pointing out this existing problem between perceived and actual prestige is so triggering to some of you staunch defenders.

Perhaps it is obvious to those of us that actually attended the school that you know nothing about it. Just a page or two ago, you didn’t know that international studies was a different major than political science. Now you claim to be an expert on ranking the international studies program. You want to disregard the ranking that had it first for undergrad international studies and focus on the one that found it fifteenth as if that is somehow definitive. It also simply isn’t true that there is no relationship between Hopkins undergrads and SAIS. SAIS professors occasionally teach a course at Homewood (I personally took a course on African politics taught by a SAIS professor as an undergrad), undergrads commonly study abroad at SAIS Europe in Bologna, and there is a five year BA/MA program where three years are at Homewood and two are at SAIS.

The better question is why someone who knows so little about the school is willing to devote so much time to attacking it.

Foreign Policy magazine is far more authoritative than whatever your "college factual" ranking is, which, in my opinion, is by no means "factual" at all if they place SAIS's undergrad #1 in the country in terms of international studies. Care to provide metrics fo your ranking? The FP ranking is actually based on surveys of IR experts in the field and shows how the programs are perceived by authoritative experts - by the way, I hardly know any top-notch IR experts coming out of Hopkins, having studied IR extensively myself, but you can easily name IR giants from any of the top 5 schools like Harvard (Joseph Nye, Sam Huntington), Stanford (Stephen Walt, Frank Fukuyama), Princeton (John Ikenberry), Columbia (Robert Jervis), Chicago (John Mearsheimer), and Berkeley (Kenneth Waltz).

I am not devoting time to attacking it, I'm just trying to give you a realistic view of how JHU is perceived beyond your own myopic alumni circles. Sorry if it shatters your illusions but facts are often unpleasant to the ear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the Hopkins undergraduate internal studies rankings, in addition to the number one ranking on prior page, another ranking of it as seventh. https://collegegazette.com/best-international-relations-schools-in-the-us/, and eighth https://collegegazette.com/best-international-relations-schools-in-the-us/

These general rankings are not authoritative by any sense. You need industry experts to rank these schools, or some reliable ranking that tells you the metric (like US News), not some BS ranking aggregator that doesn't even show its ranking metric. I'm just shocked that you don't see FP as an authoritative source and it speaks volumes about your lack of expertise on this topic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Because it's not peers with those schools?

Hopkins is overranked because of federal funding for its medical research and Applied Physics Lab. While I'm sure the medical research has some carryover for undergrad students in biological sciences, it doesn't do much for anything outside of those subjects. The APL is based a 30 minutes drive off campus so it's not of much use to physics/engineering undergrad students.

The Ivies are Ivies, and therefore recognized globally. Duke is well-recognized nationally in every industry due to it's breadth of competencies and also basketball. Hopkins is well recognized nationally but primarily as a pre-med school.

How could you live in this area and be totally ignorant of SAIS?

SAIS is a graduate school and based in DC, again not very relevant to undergrads.

Exactly. Hopkins' best to offer in terms of academics are not very relevant to undergrads. Be it medical school or SAIS. The political science department, which is actually based in Baltimore, is separate from SAIS and the rankings are in the 40s, which is pretty low for a school of its caliber. Definitely not a top-tier department.

Again, you reveal you have no clue what you are talking about. International studies is a different major than poly sci. And here’s the rankings. https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/international-relations-national-security/rankings/top-ranked/

Dear, I absolutely know what I am talking about. Foreign Policy's rankings on IR programs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Top 5 undergrad IR programs

Harvard
Princeton
Stanford
Georgetown
Columbia

and JHU at #15.

Top 5 grad IR programs (Master's degree)

Georgetown
Harvard
JHU
Princeton
Columbia

Top 5 grad IR programs

Havard
Princeton
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago

JHU again at #16

Grad and undergrad, two very different things. Still, my point stands. What is offered at the Homewood campus is very different from its other campuses. There is a big disconnect between grad and undergrad programs at JHU, and it's not uncommon to JHU. Many grad-heavy institutions have a similar problem. Simple as that.

The ranking I cited was obviously different but even using the worst one you could find, undergrad IR at Hopkins is T15. Sorry it is so difficult for you to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

T15 out of 50 schools does not make it a leading program. On the other hand, SAIS masters are indisputably leading programs. I don't disagree with you on that. I am simply saying there is a huge gap between grad and undergrad prestige and JHU's prestige is largely built off its grad, NOT undergrad programs. JHU has invested little in its undergrad programs until recently. And this is reflected in the poor cross-admit preferences between JHU and its peer schools and other lower ranked ivies. I really hope the Bloomberg donation could make a difference in the next 10-15 years, but I don't understand why pointing out this existing problem between perceived and actual prestige is so triggering to some of you staunch defenders.

Perhaps it is obvious to those of us that actually attended the school that you know nothing about it. Just a page or two ago, you didn’t know that international studies was a different major than political science. Now you claim to be an expert on ranking the international studies program. You want to disregard the ranking that had it first for undergrad international studies and focus on the one that found it fifteenth as if that is somehow definitive. It also simply isn’t true that there is no relationship between Hopkins undergrads and SAIS. SAIS professors occasionally teach a course at Homewood (I personally took a course on African politics taught by a SAIS professor as an undergrad), undergrads commonly study abroad at SAIS Europe in Bologna, and there is a five year BA/MA program where three years are at Homewood and two are at SAIS.

The better question is why someone who knows so little about the school is willing to devote so much time to attacking it.

Foreign Policy magazine is far more authoritative than whatever your "college factual" ranking is, which, in my opinion, is by no means "factual" at all if they place SAIS's undergrad #1 in the country in terms of international studies. Care to provide metrics fo your ranking? The FP ranking is actually based on surveys of IR experts in the field and shows how the programs are perceived by authoritative experts - by the way, I hardly know any top-notch IR experts coming out of Hopkins, having studied IR extensively myself, but you can easily name IR giants from any of the top 5 schools like Harvard (Joseph Nye, Sam Huntington), Stanford (Stephen Walt, Frank Fukuyama), Princeton (John Ikenberry), Columbia (Robert Jervis), Chicago (John Mearsheimer), and Berkeley (Kenneth Waltz).

I am not devoting time to attacking it, I'm just trying to give you a realistic view of how JHU is perceived beyond your own myopic alumni circles. Sorry if it shatters your illusions but facts are often unpleasant to the ear.

Oh please, I could care less what you think, I gave you three different rankings that have Hopkins in the T 10. As if I or anyone else would believe the anonymous poster who didn’t know the difference between a poly sci and an IR major at Hopkins is some type of IR guru.

In any case, that Hopkins IR major took me to a T5 law school and then the DC office of a major law firm where I practiced in an area of international law, so it worked out just fine for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in competitive Boston suburb, and you really never hear of any kids thinking of Hopkins as a top choice. I've heard of kids going as athletes, but no one else.

Is it a big top choice for DMV kids? Who's going to Hopkins? why is the acceptance rate so low? I get that it's an amazing school, but I really never hear of it being a place kids in Boston want to go to.

87 percent of students come from outside Maryland.

A lot of Asians from the DMV area

[Anonymous]

I saw this from another thread, so just copying and pasting it here. This is for people who think JHU's academics are somehow "harder” or more rigorous than its peers....

Princeton (10 top 10 programs, 7 top 5 programs)
#20 in engineering
#6 in biological sciences
#7 in chemsitry
#9 in CS
#12 in earth sciences
#4 in economics
#3 in English
#2 in history
#1 in mathmatics
#2 in physics
#2 in polisci
#6 in psychology
#12 in public affairs
#2 in sociology

Yale (9 top 10 programs, 4 top 5 programs)
#7 in business
#38 in engineering
#1 in law
#10 in medicine
#20 in nursing
#6 in biological sciences
#13 in biostats
#12 in chemistry
#20 in CS
#19 in earth sciences
#4 in economics
#1 in English
#2 in fine arts
#2 in history
#12 in math
#11 in physics
#6 in polisci
#6 in psychology
#11 in public health
#18 in sociology
#13 in stats

Columbia (15 top 10 programs, 7 top 5 programs)
#8 in business
#13 in engineering
#4 in law
#3 in medicine
#6 in nursing
#11 in biological sciences
#7 in biostats
#12 in chemistry
#11 in CS
#5 in earth sciences
#9 in economics
#8 in English
#10 in fine arts
#5 in history
#7 in math
#9 in physics
#8 in polisci
#12 in psychology
#23 in public affairs
#4 in public health
#5 in social work
#11 in sociology
#5 in stats

Chicago (12 top 10 programs, 7 top 5 programs)
#1 in business
#3 in law
#20 in medicine
#11 in biological sciences
#7 in chemistry
#28 in CS
#19 in earth sciences
#4 in economics
#3 in English
#42 in fine arts
#5 in history
#3 in math
#7 in physics
#10 in polisci
#12 in psychology
#8 in public affairs
#2 in social work
#7 in sociology
#3 in stats

Penn (9 top 10 programs, 4 top 5 programs)
#1 in business
#1 in education
#18 in engineering
#6 in law
#6 in medicine
#4 in nursing
#15 in biological sciences
#6 in biostats
#17 in chemistry
#17 in CS
#62 in earth sciences
#9 in economics
#3 in English
#64 in fine arts
#11 in history
#17 in math
#11 in physics
#19 in polisci
#12 in psychology
#31 in public health
#11 in social work
#13 in sociology
#7 in statistics

Duke (4 top ten programs, 1 top 5)
#12 in business
#24 in engineering
#11 in law
#6 in medicine
#2 in nursing
#11 in biological science
#13 in biostats
#35 in chemistry
#23 in computer science
#36 in earth sciences
#18 in economics
#13 in English
#18 in history
#28 in physics
#10 in political science
#12 in psychology
#23 in public affairs
#13 in sociology
#7 in statistics

Northwestern (5 top 10 programs, 1 top 5 program)
#3 in business
#11 in education
#18 in engineering
#13 in law
#17 in medicine
#32 in biological sciences
#7 in chemistry
#28 in CS
#36 in earth sciences
#8 in economics
#13 in English
#16 in history
#73 in fine arts
#16 in math
#20 in physics
#19 in polisci
#9 in psychology
#31 in public health
#7 in sociology
#37 in statistics

JHU (5 top 10 programs, 4 top 5 programs)
#14 education
#16 engineering
#3 medicine
#1 nursing
#6 biological sciences
#1 biostats
#21 chemistry
#20 CS
#40 earth sciences
#22 economics
#13 English
#10 history
#21 mathematics
#15 physics
#41 polisci
#12 psychology
#35 public affairs
#1 public health
#29 sociology

Fact is they are not, and clearly JHU is a very pre-med focused school and its top departments are all med-related. Outside the medicine field the grad rankings are not terribly impressive.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Because it's not peers with those schools?

Hopkins is overranked because of federal funding for its medical research and Applied Physics Lab. While I'm sure the medical research has some carryover for undergrad students in biological sciences, it doesn't do much for anything outside of those subjects. The APL is based a 30 minutes drive off campus so it's not of much use to physics/engineering undergrad students.

The Ivies are Ivies, and therefore recognized globally. Duke is well-recognized nationally in every industry due to it's breadth of competencies and also basketball. Hopkins is well recognized nationally but primarily as a pre-med school.

How could you live in this area and be totally ignorant of SAIS?

SAIS is a graduate school and based in DC, again not very relevant to undergrads.

Exactly. Hopkins' best to offer in terms of academics are not very relevant to undergrads. Be it medical school or SAIS. The political science department, which is actually based in Baltimore, is separate from SAIS and the rankings are in the 40s, which is pretty low for a school of its caliber. Definitely not a top-tier department.

Again, you reveal you have no clue what you are talking about. International studies is a different major than poly sci. And here’s the rankings. https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/international-relations-national-security/rankings/top-ranked/

Dear, I absolutely know what I am talking about. Foreign Policy's rankings on IR programs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Top 5 undergrad IR programs

Harvard
Princeton
Stanford
Georgetown
Columbia

and JHU at #15.

Top 5 grad IR programs (Master's degree)

Georgetown
Harvard
JHU
Princeton
Columbia

Top 5 grad IR programs

Havard
Princeton
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago

JHU again at #16

Grad and undergrad, two very different things. Still, my point stands. What is offered at the Homewood campus is very different from its other campuses. There is a big disconnect between grad and undergrad programs at JHU, and it's not uncommon to JHU. Many grad-heavy institutions have a similar problem. Simple as that.

The ranking I cited was obviously different but even using the worst one you could find, undergrad IR at Hopkins is T15. Sorry it is so difficult for you to ever acknowledge you are wrong.

T15 out of 50 schools does not make it a leading program. On the other hand, SAIS masters are indisputably leading programs. I don't disagree with you on that. I am simply saying there is a huge gap between grad and undergrad prestige and JHU's prestige is largely built off its grad, NOT undergrad programs. JHU has invested little in its undergrad programs until recently. And this is reflected in the poor cross-admit preferences between JHU and its peer schools and other lower ranked ivies. I really hope the Bloomberg donation could make a difference in the next 10-15 years, but I don't understand why pointing out this existing problem between perceived and actual prestige is so triggering to some of you staunch defenders.

Perhaps it is obvious to those of us that actually attended the school that you know nothing about it. Just a page or two ago, you didn’t know that international studies was a different major than political science. Now you claim to be an expert on ranking the international studies program. You want to disregard the ranking that had it first for undergrad international studies and focus on the one that found it fifteenth as if that is somehow definitive. It also simply isn’t true that there is no relationship between Hopkins undergrads and SAIS. SAIS professors occasionally teach a course at Homewood (I personally took a course on African politics taught by a SAIS professor as an undergrad), undergrads commonly study abroad at SAIS Europe in Bologna, and there is a five year BA/MA program where three years are at Homewood and two are at SAIS.

The better question is why someone who knows so little about the school is willing to devote so much time to attacking it.

Foreign Policy magazine is far more authoritative than whatever your "college factual" ranking is, which, in my opinion, is by no means "factual" at all if they place SAIS's undergrad #1 in the country in terms of international studies. Care to provide metrics fo your ranking? The FP ranking is actually based on surveys of IR experts in the field and shows how the programs are perceived by authoritative experts - by the way, I hardly know any top-notch IR experts coming out of Hopkins, having studied IR extensively myself, but you can easily name IR giants from any of the top 5 schools like Harvard (Joseph Nye, Sam Huntington), Stanford (Stephen Walt, Frank Fukuyama), Princeton (John Ikenberry), Columbia (Robert Jervis), Chicago (John Mearsheimer), and Berkeley (Kenneth Waltz).

I am not devoting time to attacking it, I'm just trying to give you a realistic view of how JHU is perceived beyond your own myopic alumni circles. Sorry if it shatters your illusions but facts are often unpleasant to the ear.

Oh please, I could care less what you think, I gave you three different rankings that have Hopkins in the T 10. As if I or anyone else would believe the anonymous poster who didn’t know the difference between a poly sci and an IR major at Hopkins is some type of IR guru.

In any case, that Hopkins IR major took me to a T5 law school and then the DC office of a major law firm where I practiced in an area of international law, so it worked out just fine for me.

Not PP but 15 pages of posters care and tons of college applicants do, which is reflected by the low cross-admit rates.

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Anonymous wrote:Hopkins. 61 , Vandy 39
Hopkins 65, UCLA 35
Hopkins 53, Wash U 47
Hopkins 68, Mich 32
Hopkins 80, Emory 20


Comes close to the lower Ivies, but can’t match them
Hopkins 49 Cornell 51

But as OP would probably admit, since JHU is ranked well above those schools, they aren’t the peers…right?

They aren’t going to beat out the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Who does?

Well we already basically beat out Cornell, so all the Ivies can't be lumped together. And Duke beats out a ton of Ivies for cross-admits, so why can't we? We're ranked higher and we have better prestige than Duke.

Wait, are you talking about Hopkins? JHU undergrad is far less prestigious than Duke.

I'm talking about in general, including undergrad. For undergrad specifically, JHU is currently #7, tied with UPenn, on USNWR. Duke is #10.

Duke hasn't been ranked higher than Hopkins by USNWR, by far the most influential ranking source like it or not, since 2019 (which is a very long time for kids who are 16-18). Historically, I'd say you're probably right that Duke has been more prestigious name wise but the Hopkins association with the med school and hospital gives them something they may actually be the best at, which Duke doesn't have (Stanford and Harvard, for example, would be clearly better than Duke for undergrad and every major grad school). Both are great and elite overall but not in the very top group of universities.

Yes I'm agreeing with you, which is why I said JHU is #7 while Duke is #10 on USNWR which just further highlights JHU is in a different league than Duke. Finally someone else gets it, too many people on here are just ignoring the data.

GW man here again. It's clear you are insecure about Johns Hopkins and how it compares to the Ivy League, Stanford, and Duke for some reason, so let's put this to rest with some more "data." Before I provide the data, just a friendly reminder that none of what I'm about to share takes away from the fact that JHU is a fine institution and a great place for a kid to get an education. This is all stuff that could be found previously on here, but here we go:

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 16% - Yale 84%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Columbia 81%
Johns Hopkins 41% - Dartmouth 59%
Johns Hopkins 49% - Cornell 51%

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Top Non-Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 15% - Stanford 85%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Duke 81%
Johns Hopkins 31% - UChicago 69%
Johns Hopkins 35% - Northwestern 65%
Johns Hopkins 44% - Rice 56%
Johns Hopkins 53% - WashU 47%
Johns Hopkins 61% - Vanderbilt 39%

Now, since you love rankings so much, let's compare undergraduate rankings by the 5 most popular publications.

JHU College Rankings

USNWR: 7
WSJ/THE: 9
Forbes: 18
Niche: 21
Washington Monthly: 23

Cornell College Rankings (picking Cornell as the Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 17
WSJ/THE: 11
Forbes: 16
Niche: 23
Washington Monthly: 8

Duke College Rankings (picking Duke as the non-Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 10
WSJ/THE: 5
Forbes: 9
Niche: 8
Washington Monthly: 5

JHU and Cornell match up pretty well, which is what several people before were saying, but you still seem to think JHU has far surpassed Cornell. All the data shows they're quite neck-and-neck both in rankings and cross-admits. Duke, on the other hand, blows JHU (and Cornell) out of the water in cross-admits and rankings. Interestingly, USNWR is Hopkins' best ranking out of all of them, and it's Duke's worst. It's impressive to say the least that Duke is ranked #10 on USNWR, but as you keep looking at other rankings it gets better and better, meaning USNWR is actually probably lowballing Duke. Are we done now? JHU is still a great school but you reek of insecurity.

Nice compiling. My comment on Cornell's financial aid policy kind of makes the same point without all the numbers. If we felt Hopkins was so much better for undergrad than us as the PP keeps seeming to claim, we would match their financial aid offers but we don't. To summarize and remind: "Cornell is unable to consider evaluating scholarship offers that are not from another Ivy League institution, Stanford, Duke or MIT or offers based on athletics and/or merit. Of the students who said where they planned to enroll, they most often chose the Ivies, Stanford, Duke or MIT over Cornell, Keane said. Princeton and Harvard were each the choice of 7 percent of accepted students who declined Cornell; UPenn and MIT were each the choice of 5 percent; Duke and Yale were each the choice of 4 percent; and Columbia, Stanford and Dartmouth University were each the choice of 3 percent." No mention of Hopkins for the schools outside the Ivy League. I however, have no qualms conceding Stanford, Duke, and MIT are overall better undergraduate institutions than Cornell. I've come to accept that without much difficulty.

I don't care about Cornell's financial aid policy or who they lose students to. The truth is JHU is way past Cornell for undergrad: we're #7 on USNWR while Cornell is way back at #17 on USNWR. That makes Cornell more like a backup option to us instead of an actual peer.

JHU's undergraduate peers are Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, UChicago, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, and WashU. That's the reality that most of the metrics point to, whether you like it or not. You're not quite at the level of Yale, Penn, Duke, Columbia - that's it's own grouping.

This is only the grouping of a foreigner (or someone who didn't go to college) who obsessively reads USNWR.

Here's a real ranking:

Tier 1 - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford
Tier 1A - MIT and Caltech
Tier 2 - Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Northwestern, and begrudgingly Chicago
Tier 3 - Cornell, Penn, Hopkins, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Rice, the good publics like Berkeley and UVA, the good Catholic schools like ND and Georgetown

For SLACs, it's Williams and Amherst, then Swarthmore and maybe Pomona, then everyone else.

Agree with this but just take out ND. Maybe bump WUSTL down to whatever "Tier 4" would be.

The PP who thinks "Yale, Duke, Penn and Columbia" constitute a tier is genuinely bonkers.

Notre Dame is absolutely a peer of schools like Vanderbilt, Cornell, UVA.

I'm sorry can we stop the Notre Dame circle jerk? sure, it's fine if you want an ultra-conservative, catholic, meet-and-marry-your-future-spouse-while-in-college undergrad experience, and if your favorite hobby is watching football. But it is fundamentally near the level of UVA or Cornell.

Cornell
UVA
Notre Dame maybe in the same tier with Vandy?

I have no connection to any of these schools, but Cornell and UVA have serious research, serious law, med, biz grad schools, serious PhD programs. Notre Dame has catholicism and football

LOL your kid UVA right

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Anonymous wrote:Hopkins. 61 , Vandy 39
Hopkins 65, UCLA 35
Hopkins 53, Wash U 47
Hopkins 68, Mich 32
Hopkins 80, Emory 20


Comes close to the lower Ivies, but can’t match them
Hopkins 49 Cornell 51

But as OP would probably admit, since JHU is ranked well above those schools, they aren’t the peers…right?

They aren’t going to beat out the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Who does?

Well we already basically beat out Cornell, so all the Ivies can't be lumped together. And Duke beats out a ton of Ivies for cross-admits, so why can't we? We're ranked higher and we have better prestige than Duke.

Wait, are you talking about Hopkins? JHU undergrad is far less prestigious than Duke.

I'm talking about in general, including undergrad. For undergrad specifically, JHU is currently #7, tied with UPenn, on USNWR. Duke is #10.

Duke hasn't been ranked higher than Hopkins by USNWR, by far the most influential ranking source like it or not, since 2019 (which is a very long time for kids who are 16-18). Historically, I'd say you're probably right that Duke has been more prestigious name wise but the Hopkins association with the med school and hospital gives them something they may actually be the best at, which Duke doesn't have (Stanford and Harvard, for example, would be clearly better than Duke for undergrad and every major grad school). Both are great and elite overall but not in the very top group of universities.

Yes I'm agreeing with you, which is why I said JHU is #7 while Duke is #10 on USNWR which just further highlights JHU is in a different league than Duke. Finally someone else gets it, too many people on here are just ignoring the data.

GW man here again. It's clear you are insecure about Johns Hopkins and how it compares to the Ivy League, Stanford, and Duke for some reason, so let's put this to rest with some more "data." Before I provide the data, just a friendly reminder that none of what I'm about to share takes away from the fact that JHU is a fine institution and a great place for a kid to get an education. This is all stuff that could be found previously on here, but here we go:

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 16% - Yale 84%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Columbia 81%
Johns Hopkins 41% - Dartmouth 59%
Johns Hopkins 49% - Cornell 51%

Cross-Admit Data with Some of the Top Non-Ivy League

Johns Hopkins 15% - Stanford 85%
Johns Hopkins 19% - Duke 81%
Johns Hopkins 31% - UChicago 69%
Johns Hopkins 35% - Northwestern 65%
Johns Hopkins 44% - Rice 56%
Johns Hopkins 53% - WashU 47%
Johns Hopkins 61% - Vanderbilt 39%

Now, since you love rankings so much, let's compare undergraduate rankings by the 5 most popular publications.

JHU College Rankings

USNWR: 7
WSJ/THE: 9
Forbes: 18
Niche: 21
Washington Monthly: 23

Cornell College Rankings (picking Cornell as the Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 17
WSJ/THE: 11
Forbes: 16
Niche: 23
Washington Monthly: 8

Duke College Rankings (picking Duke as the non-Ivy Representative because you seem to have the most problem with them)

USNWR: 10
WSJ/THE: 5
Forbes: 9
Niche: 8
Washington Monthly: 5

JHU and Cornell match up pretty well, which is what several people before were saying, but you still seem to think JHU has far surpassed Cornell. All the data shows they're quite neck-and-neck both in rankings and cross-admits. Duke, on the other hand, blows JHU (and Cornell) out of the water in cross-admits and rankings. Interestingly, USNWR is Hopkins' best ranking out of all of them, and it's Duke's worst. It's impressive to say the least that Duke is ranked #10 on USNWR, but as you keep looking at other rankings it gets better and better, meaning USNWR is actually probably lowballing Duke. Are we done now? JHU is still a great school but you reek of insecurity.

Nice compiling. My comment on Cornell's financial aid policy kind of makes the same point without all the numbers. If we felt Hopkins was so much better for undergrad than us as the PP keeps seeming to claim, we would match their financial aid offers but we don't. To summarize and remind: "Cornell is unable to consider evaluating scholarship offers that are not from another Ivy League institution, Stanford, Duke or MIT or offers based on athletics and/or merit. Of the students who said where they planned to enroll, they most often chose the Ivies, Stanford, Duke or MIT over Cornell, Keane said. Princeton and Harvard were each the choice of 7 percent of accepted students who declined Cornell; UPenn and MIT were each the choice of 5 percent; Duke and Yale were each the choice of 4 percent; and Columbia, Stanford and Dartmouth University were each the choice of 3 percent." No mention of Hopkins for the schools outside the Ivy League. I however, have no qualms conceding Stanford, Duke, and MIT are overall better undergraduate institutions than Cornell. I've come to accept that without much difficulty.

I don't care about Cornell's financial aid policy or who they lose students to. The truth is JHU is way past Cornell for undergrad: we're #7 on USNWR while Cornell is way back at #17 on USNWR. That makes Cornell more like a backup option to us instead of an actual peer.

JHU's undergraduate peers are Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, UChicago, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, and WashU. That's the reality that most of the metrics point to, whether you like it or not. You're not quite at the level of Yale, Penn, Duke, Columbia - that's it's own grouping.

This is only the grouping of a foreigner (or someone who didn't go to college) who obsessively reads USNWR.

Here's a real ranking:

Tier 1 - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford
Tier 1A - MIT and Caltech
Tier 2 - Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Northwestern, and begrudgingly Chicago
Tier 3 - Cornell, Penn, Hopkins, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Rice, the good publics like Berkeley and UVA, the good Catholic schools like ND and Georgetown

For SLACs, it's Williams and Amherst, then Swarthmore and maybe Pomona, then everyone else.

Agree with this but just take out ND. Maybe bump WUSTL down to whatever "Tier 4" would be.

The PP who thinks "Yale, Duke, Penn and Columbia" constitute a tier is genuinely bonkers.

Notre Dame is absolutely a peer of schools like Vanderbilt, Cornell, UVA.

I'm sorry can we stop the Notre Dame circle jerk? sure, it's fine if you want an ultra-conservative, catholic, meet-and-marry-your-future-spouse-while-in-college undergrad experience, and if your favorite hobby is watching football. But it is fundamentally near the level of UVA or Cornell.

Cornell
UVA
Notre Dame maybe in the same tier with Vandy?

I have no connection to any of these schools, but Cornell and UVA have serious research, serious law, med, biz grad schools, serious PhD programs. Notre Dame has catholicism and football

Princeton doesn't have medical school or law school as well as LACs such as Williams or Amherst.
These schools including Notre Dame are known for providing great undergrad education and hence ranked high in that area.
I think you are either very dumb or anti-Catholic bigot.
BTW ND has amazing undergrad biz school and student caring, so my non-Catholic kid chose Notre Dame over UVA and Vanderbilt.