Anonymous wrote:Listen all of you. At the macro level, myself and all my wealthy colleagues who choose to benevolently send our kids to DC public schools will stop if we come to understand this town won’t do jack sht beyond “restorative justice” and other methods of watering down discipline for solve fights when actual, tangible punishment is needed.
Beyond ending ap classes and lowering standards out of “equity”, and social engineering, you might see a mass migration to private schools. You think I am kidding? Stop fking around with your Uber liberal lax on everything policies or you will see a massive decline in school quality when all the children raised in good homes leave. The only reason scores went up across the board over the last few years is because of wealthy people who took a chance. These last few years are full of idiotic policies to make classes easier or to allow bullying to continue.
Wow. I actually agree that DC and DCPS need to be less lenient on behavior issues and crime, but you didn't do anything out of benevolence. You did whatever you thought was best for your own family, including financially.
I did. I also did it because I believe in public schools. I don’t believe in overpaid and under qualified government workers and politicians pushing educational polices of questionable efficacy. Many seem detrimental. Ending ap classes. Less of a focus on the right answer. No suspensions. Restorative justice or hugs from an abuser to someone being abused. Passing kids just so the school doesn’t look bad. I am writing very plainly because really all the new jargon and euphemisms from people like Ibrahim x. Kendi, meant to push policies like restorative justice over traditional discipline are gaining traction. The disproportionate impact of racism in schools in indeed terrible, but when you water down education and discipline policies to try and counter that all you’re doing is instituting feel good hip social justice warrior stuff that really may not be of any help. My kids are going where they can learn, with motivated peers, and school administrators who are treated and treat others fairly. I don’t care if you label that tough or racist or whatever. It’s not. I want diversity at all schools everywhere. I just don’t want questionable policies that result in poor grades and bullying. Do you understand?
PP you're responding to here and I actually agree with the premise of what you're saying, but you're coming across as less than civil. But yes, DCPS is on a downward spiral with our political climate and current DC Council. If this trajectory isn't corrected, then DCPS will be set back decades and this will have terrible results for DC's poor with increased violence and worse schools abandoned by anyone who can afford to get out of DCPS/DCPCS.
I’m responding in the same blunt tone that the far left seems to employ when discussing their new school policies. It’s this “my approach is right and if you differently you’re racist” pandering and condescending message over and over again. You know why Virginia is going to turn red? It’s not because white parents are so scared and racist and don’t want their child to maybe hear about the horrors of slavery and white legacy in facilitating that terror.
They are voting red because the left is increasingly authoritarian in their views. They simply “know best”. Whether it’s on ending ap classes. Or changing race neutral entrance exams to schools like TJ or pushing lax on discipline schools polices like restorative justice to try to bridge a gap. Basically parents are not idiots and can see that liberal policies, while hearts are in the right place, can lead to worse outcomes. You can only water down school rigor and safety so much before parents react. And ready they should. We need capable future engineers, not ones who were pushed to the next grade out of fairness or to make the school pass rate better.
So I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.
I couldn't end this without adding on that the point that "wealthy students" are inflating DCPS scores, which is something I totally agree with. I hope we all remember that when people defend Mayoral Control by pointing to improvements in NAEP scores.
It’s not about me being uncomfortable with educational change. Plenty of uncomfortable changes happen all the time, especially with new administrations choosing their own experts. We see policy changes at the highest levels. One example would be the housing crash, we allowed super low interest rates and exotic loan products to flourish from 2001-2009 and how’d that work out for everyone? We allowed banks to give loans to anyone with a pulse and faced massive default.
So I’m happy you have an MA. That’s great. It doesn’t mean you have a crystal ball that shows watering down discipline and bullying with restorative justice, or ending actual race neutral tests to get into competitive schools will in the long run prove to be good policy. So your pandering tone and qualifications on this forum don’t really matter.
can i just go back to this for a minute? what a word salad!
LOL! I appreciate the support. Some people on the site just use it as a place to be angry so it doesn’t bother me but seeing your response was appreciated
Amazing. This is without a doubt the most racist thing I've seen on DCUM. The most fascinating part is that I don't think any of these parents mind being called racists.
Anonymous wrote:Listen all of you. At the macro level, myself and all my wealthy colleagues who choose to benevolently send our kids to DC public schools will stop if we come to understand this town won’t do jack sht beyond “restorative justice” and other methods of watering down discipline for solve fights when actual, tangible punishment is needed.
Beyond ending ap classes and lowering standards out of “equity”, and social engineering, you might see a mass migration to private schools. You think I am kidding? Stop fking around with your Uber liberal lax on everything policies or you will see a massive decline in school quality when all the children raised in good homes leave. The only reason scores went up across the board over the last few years is because of wealthy people who took a chance. These last few years are full of idiotic policies to make classes easier or to allow bullying to continue.
Wow. I actually agree that DC and DCPS need to be less lenient on behavior issues and crime, but you didn't do anything out of benevolence. You did whatever you thought was best for your own family, including financially.
I did. I also did it because I believe in public schools. I don’t believe in overpaid and under qualified government workers and politicians pushing educational polices of questionable efficacy. Many seem detrimental. Ending ap classes. Less of a focus on the right answer. No suspensions. Restorative justice or hugs from an abuser to someone being abused. Passing kids just so the school doesn’t look bad. I am writing very plainly because really all the new jargon and euphemisms from people like Ibrahim x. Kendi, meant to push policies like restorative justice over traditional discipline are gaining traction. The disproportionate impact of racism in schools in indeed terrible, but when you water down education and discipline policies to try and counter that all you’re doing is instituting feel good hip social justice warrior stuff that really may not be of any help. My kids are going where they can learn, with motivated peers, and school administrators who are treated and treat others fairly. I don’t care if you label that tough or racist or whatever. It’s not. I want diversity at all schools everywhere. I just don’t want questionable policies that result in poor grades and bullying. Do you understand?
PP you're responding to here and I actually agree with the premise of what you're saying, but you're coming across as less than civil. But yes, DCPS is on a downward spiral with our political climate and current DC Council. If this trajectory isn't corrected, then DCPS will be set back decades and this will have terrible results for DC's poor with increased violence and worse schools abandoned by anyone who can afford to get out of DCPS/DCPCS.
I’m responding in the same blunt tone that the far left seems to employ when discussing their new school policies. It’s this “my approach is right and if you differently you’re racist” pandering and condescending message over and over again. You know why Virginia is going to turn red? It’s not because white parents are so scared and racist and don’t want their child to maybe hear about the horrors of slavery and white legacy in facilitating that terror.
They are voting red because the left is increasingly authoritarian in their views. They simply “know best”. Whether it’s on ending ap classes. Or changing race neutral entrance exams to schools like TJ or pushing lax on discipline schools polices like restorative justice to try to bridge a gap. Basically parents are not idiots and can see that liberal policies, while hearts are in the right place, can lead to worse outcomes. You can only water down school rigor and safety so much before parents react. And ready they should. We need capable future engineers, not ones who were pushed to the next grade out of fairness or to make the school pass rate better.
So I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.
I couldn't end this without adding on that the point that "wealthy students" are inflating DCPS scores, which is something I totally agree with. I hope we all remember that when people defend Mayoral Control by pointing to improvements in NAEP scores.
NP. Who is thriving in this new world utopia? What are the metrics for thriving and where do we see the results?
thriving; students of color who had to previously learn under the eye of teachers who practiced implicit or unconscious bias, which exposed them to systemic racism in a "safe" place as early as 3 or 4; students that have impulse control issues and are now being given tools to manage their behaviors (I remind parents at my school of this all the time; just because you don't see the consequence, that does not mean its not happening); students with (and without disabilities) that now have multiple means of expressing themselves in their work (rather than just through testing data).
This is how DCPS is tracking student SEL (Social - Emotional) data. https://www.panoramaed.com/blog/dc-public-schools-success-story There are decades of research that connect SEL and Academic progress. If you really don't believe me, or consider pandering, you are welcome to do some research on the topic
Not thriving: kids whose mental and emotional health are negatively affected by threats to personal safety and whose academic needs are not met due to classroom disruptions, overcrowded schools and overworked, undersupported faculty.
It’s great the kids with impulse control issues are being given tools. What do you say to the victims? What tools do they get?
I would argue that one of life's greatest skills is learning that living in a society means there will always be aggressors. We teach and role play with students starting at a very young age on skills such as self - advocacy, and when that fails, how to safely report. There will always be situations where it doesn't work out beautifully and there will always be extreme cases (just like in the real world).
I could not speak on behalf of all educators but I support this path because I believe that we will need our next generation to be an empathetic and responsible group more than anything else in the world. Do I want my students to know how to do the things I teach them, of course. But, I also think that there is a huge industrial shift going on right now and we can't be stuck thinking that everyone needs to grow up to become a doctor or lawyer. A classical education isn't as essential as it used to be in order to be a successful adult.
Whoa. Why not teach them BOTH empathy/responsibility AND math and writing and all that sort of pesky stuff?
That is, when the eleven year olds aren’t having to worry about self-advocating with bullies.
When we structure our SEL learning, we try to explicitly teach those high level skills during a 30 - 45 minute portion of Morning Meeting (in ES) and advisories in MS/HS. SEL skills such as perseverance and resiliency, are constantly folded into our academic day. For example, when a student gets a math problem wrong, we practice things such as positive self talk and ways we can bounce back from our mistakes. It's been great for students and have really changed their outlook on learning. I've heard kids go from "I'll never be good at math" to "I used to get so frustrated but now I know what to do when I'm stuck!"
I hope this clarifies your misconceptions. Let me know if you have any other questions!
Great.
What about the kids who are victims of bullies who can’t access the curriculum because they are so worried about their safety? “I’d love to be able to concentrate on this math problem but I can’t stop thinking about that kid who picks on me every day and never gets suspended. I wish I could know what to do when I am stuck in the same class with that kid.”
Good question! As part of our sessions, we teach students how to speak up if they are being bullied, or how to report if they see another student being bullied (we talk a lot about how to be an ally instead of a bystander). If a student is being bullied or feels unsafe, then the teacher is meant to support the student in first feeling safe, and then finding a solution for both students. That may mean the aggressor doing their math work in a different space while the student who was bullied works in the classroom or vice versa (this is just one example of a solution but we obviously would take it on a kid by kid basis). We want kids in school so we stretch ourselves to find ways for all students to be members of our community.
Terrific. Do you ever show the victim that the aggressive kid is being punished or at least physically removed from the school environment so the victim knows that you care that they are in fear of their physical safety? The victim should not have to work in an different space. The victim should not have the burden of trying to help find a solution for the aggressor. The solution should help the victim first.
Why is the aggressor more important than the victim?
If someone is sick and throws up on you, we want to make sure you are cleaned up and okay. We also want to make sure the purpose who was actually ill is also given care. Many bullies and aggressors are showing “symptoms” and as a school body we want to treat them and make sure they are also okay. You’re not punishing the victim by moving them to a space they feel safe anymore than you are punishing someone by giving them a new shirt.
This is a useless analogy. Someone who throws up on you because he or she is ill is usually doing so involuntarily. They have no choice not to vomit. An aggressive or violent kid bears individual responsibility for his or her choices, even if we do want to take into consideration any challenging circumstances that person might face. But again, you are taking up the cause of the aggressors here (excusing away their choices and the free will they exercised in making them) by describing it like an illness they can't control. I've worked with plenty of kids from horrific backgrounds. Most of them did not make those poor choices. It's unfair and patronizing and unhelpful to imply that all of these kids are helpless or that all of them can be coddled out of their bad behavior. Unfortunately some of them can't be. They shouldn't be allowed to impose on the kids who are in school to learn.
Gonna try to knock out a few of the most recent questions on your post so I apologize if they are not all directly to your post, PP.
Many students are acting impulsively (or involuntary) when they hit a peer or act out in some other aggressive manner. As adults we try to support them by giving them explicit lessons on how to control or replace those impulses.
To the PP asking if we temporarily remove students, yes, definitely! If I see someone hit another kid at recess they are absolutely sitting out until they have cooled down and spoken with an adult.
It’s 100% okay if a child who was a victim doesn’t want to speak with the aggressor. It happens sometimes, but lees often than you think. Not everything in life has a perfect closing.
Thank you all for these questions; I’m really appreciative of the dialogue we’re having
As a Deal staff member, I don’t think you work there.
Never said I did. I work at a different DCPS school
So you give a kid a timeout for hitting another student? This isn’t kindergarten we are talking about. How is the victim supposed to feel loved and supported and protected if all you do is give a timeout to the kid who deliberately hits them? The aggressor is just back in the hallway or classroom the rest of the day and the victim knows they have an even bigger target on their back.
Once again you are saying you care more about the aggressor than the victim. Don’t you think the victim can see what you are doing? Don’t you think they probably go along with your relationship building because they think they have to because they can see that you do not have their back?
Here’s the thing: Throughout all your responses here, you have demonstrated that you are more focused on the aggressor and helping them not be aggressive than you are on the victim and making the victim whole and feel safe. All the kids see this even if you don’t.
While your concerns are valid, I can only talk from my own experiences. In my experience that hasn’t been the case and I’m basing this on conversations I’ve had with families of students who were the “victim”, as well as students themselves. We front load the school year with these conversations and how it is important to support one another, even when an agressor “acts out”. All people make mistakes and I believe in treating them with empathy. Students appreciate this because it reinforces that their teacher cares and will support them if they make mistakes.
At the same time, students need to feel safe and their safety is of paramount importance to me. Students do need to see that you are protecting them when they feel unsafe which is why I take a no nonsense approach to anything physical I see, or any sort of language that comes across as threatening. From what I’ve read through in this thread, our fundamental difference comes out in that parents here would like a more public acknowledgment of the punishment, whereas my training and experiences find that sort of public reprimand to be “shaming” of children.
Additionally, I find nothing wrong with caring for the aggressor. I do not believe people are born evil and take my responsibilities seriously to try and support all children.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We can disagree but I hope you can also see why I train my teachers this way
I just don’t think it’s entirely upfront to talk about sel practices that aren’t actually being used at Deal with fidelity.
I jumped in because I was upset the way people were speaking about restorative Justice in general. I apologize if you found my part of the discussion misleading. I work at a different non NW DCPS school where I feel our team does a really great job. I can’t speak to Deal’s SEL program specifically but maybe there’s something to be said about peoples idea of what makes a school great or right for their kid. Scores aren’t everything
You have the patience of a saint. All of these grown ass adults are here just trying to make life hard for you, and yet here you remain, treating their concerns as valid and taking their questions in good faith. You are probably a very good teacher.
Anonymous wrote:Listen all of you. At the macro level, myself and all my wealthy colleagues who choose to benevolently send our kids to DC public schools will stop if we come to understand this town won’t do jack sht beyond “restorative justice” and other methods of watering down discipline for solve fights when actual, tangible punishment is needed.
Beyond ending ap classes and lowering standards out of “equity”, and social engineering, you might see a mass migration to private schools. You think I am kidding? Stop fking around with your Uber liberal lax on everything policies or you will see a massive decline in school quality when all the children raised in good homes leave. The only reason scores went up across the board over the last few years is because of wealthy people who took a chance. These last few years are full of idiotic policies to make classes easier or to allow bullying to continue.
Wow. I actually agree that DC and DCPS need to be less lenient on behavior issues and crime, but you didn't do anything out of benevolence. You did whatever you thought was best for your own family, including financially.
I did. I also did it because I believe in public schools. I don’t believe in overpaid and under qualified government workers and politicians pushing educational polices of questionable efficacy. Many seem detrimental. Ending ap classes. Less of a focus on the right answer. No suspensions. Restorative justice or hugs from an abuser to someone being abused. Passing kids just so the school doesn’t look bad. I am writing very plainly because really all the new jargon and euphemisms from people like Ibrahim x. Kendi, meant to push policies like restorative justice over traditional discipline are gaining traction. The disproportionate impact of racism in schools in indeed terrible, but when you water down education and discipline policies to try and counter that all you’re doing is instituting feel good hip social justice warrior stuff that really may not be of any help. My kids are going where they can learn, with motivated peers, and school administrators who are treated and treat others fairly. I don’t care if you label that tough or racist or whatever. It’s not. I want diversity at all schools everywhere. I just don’t want questionable policies that result in poor grades and bullying. Do you understand?
PP you're responding to here and I actually agree with the premise of what you're saying, but you're coming across as less than civil. But yes, DCPS is on a downward spiral with our political climate and current DC Council. If this trajectory isn't corrected, then DCPS will be set back decades and this will have terrible results for DC's poor with increased violence and worse schools abandoned by anyone who can afford to get out of DCPS/DCPCS.
I’m responding in the same blunt tone that the far left seems to employ when discussing their new school policies. It’s this “my approach is right and if you differently you’re racist” pandering and condescending message over and over again. You know why Virginia is going to turn red? It’s not because white parents are so scared and racist and don’t want their child to maybe hear about the horrors of slavery and white legacy in facilitating that terror.
They are voting red because the left is increasingly authoritarian in their views. They simply “know best”. Whether it’s on ending ap classes. Or changing race neutral entrance exams to schools like TJ or pushing lax on discipline schools polices like restorative justice to try to bridge a gap. Basically parents are not idiots and can see that liberal policies, while hearts are in the right place, can lead to worse outcomes. You can only water down school rigor and safety so much before parents react. And ready they should. We need capable future engineers, not ones who were pushed to the next grade out of fairness or to make the school pass rate better.
So I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.
I couldn't end this without adding on that the point that "wealthy students" are inflating DCPS scores, which is something I totally agree with. I hope we all remember that when people defend Mayoral Control by pointing to improvements in NAEP scores.
NP. Who is thriving in this new world utopia? What are the metrics for thriving and where do we see the results?
thriving; students of color who had to previously learn under the eye of teachers who practiced implicit or unconscious bias, which exposed them to systemic racism in a "safe" place as early as 3 or 4; students that have impulse control issues and are now being given tools to manage their behaviors (I remind parents at my school of this all the time; just because you don't see the consequence, that does not mean its not happening); students with (and without disabilities) that now have multiple means of expressing themselves in their work (rather than just through testing data).
This is how DCPS is tracking student SEL (Social - Emotional) data. https://www.panoramaed.com/blog/dc-public-schools-success-story There are decades of research that connect SEL and Academic progress. If you really don't believe me, or consider pandering, you are welcome to do some research on the topic
Not thriving: kids whose mental and emotional health are negatively affected by threats to personal safety and whose academic needs are not met due to classroom disruptions, overcrowded schools and overworked, undersupported faculty.
It’s great the kids with impulse control issues are being given tools. What do you say to the victims? What tools do they get?
I would argue that one of life's greatest skills is learning that living in a society means there will always be aggressors. We teach and role play with students starting at a very young age on skills such as self - advocacy, and when that fails, how to safely report. There will always be situations where it doesn't work out beautifully and there will always be extreme cases (just like in the real world).
I could not speak on behalf of all educators but I support this path because I believe that we will need our next generation to be an empathetic and responsible group more than anything else in the world. Do I want my students to know how to do the things I teach them, of course. But, I also think that there is a huge industrial shift going on right now and we can't be stuck thinking that everyone needs to grow up to become a doctor or lawyer. A classical education isn't as essential as it used to be in order to be a successful adult.
Whoa. Why not teach them BOTH empathy/responsibility AND math and writing and all that sort of pesky stuff?
That is, when the eleven year olds aren’t having to worry about self-advocating with bullies.
When we structure our SEL learning, we try to explicitly teach those high level skills during a 30 - 45 minute portion of Morning Meeting (in ES) and advisories in MS/HS. SEL skills such as perseverance and resiliency, are constantly folded into our academic day. For example, when a student gets a math problem wrong, we practice things such as positive self talk and ways we can bounce back from our mistakes. It's been great for students and have really changed their outlook on learning. I've heard kids go from "I'll never be good at math" to "I used to get so frustrated but now I know what to do when I'm stuck!"
I hope this clarifies your misconceptions. Let me know if you have any other questions!
Great.
What about the kids who are victims of bullies who can’t access the curriculum because they are so worried about their safety? “I’d love to be able to concentrate on this math problem but I can’t stop thinking about that kid who picks on me every day and never gets suspended. I wish I could know what to do when I am stuck in the same class with that kid.”
Good question! As part of our sessions, we teach students how to speak up if they are being bullied, or how to report if they see another student being bullied (we talk a lot about how to be an ally instead of a bystander). If a student is being bullied or feels unsafe, then the teacher is meant to support the student in first feeling safe, and then finding a solution for both students. That may mean the aggressor doing their math work in a different space while the student who was bullied works in the classroom or vice versa (this is just one example of a solution but we obviously would take it on a kid by kid basis). We want kids in school so we stretch ourselves to find ways for all students to be members of our community.
Terrific. Do you ever show the victim that the aggressive kid is being punished or at least physically removed from the school environment so the victim knows that you care that they are in fear of their physical safety? The victim should not have to work in an different space. The victim should not have the burden of trying to help find a solution for the aggressor. The solution should help the victim first.
Why is the aggressor more important than the victim?
If someone is sick and throws up on you, we want to make sure you are cleaned up and okay. We also want to make sure the purpose who was actually ill is also given care. Many bullies and aggressors are showing “symptoms” and as a school body we want to treat them and make sure they are also okay. You’re not punishing the victim by moving them to a space they feel safe anymore than you are punishing someone by giving them a new shirt.
This is a useless analogy. Someone who throws up on you because he or she is ill is usually doing so involuntarily. They have no choice not to vomit. An aggressive or violent kid bears individual responsibility for his or her choices, even if we do want to take into consideration any challenging circumstances that person might face. But again, you are taking up the cause of the aggressors here (excusing away their choices and the free will they exercised in making them) by describing it like an illness they can't control. I've worked with plenty of kids from horrific backgrounds. Most of them did not make those poor choices. It's unfair and patronizing and unhelpful to imply that all of these kids are helpless or that all of them can be coddled out of their bad behavior. Unfortunately some of them can't be. They shouldn't be allowed to impose on the kids who are in school to learn.
Gonna try to knock out a few of the most recent questions on your post so I apologize if they are not all directly to your post, PP.
Many students are acting impulsively (or involuntary) when they hit a peer or act out in some other aggressive manner. As adults we try to support them by giving them explicit lessons on how to control or replace those impulses.
To the PP asking if we temporarily remove students, yes, definitely! If I see someone hit another kid at recess they are absolutely sitting out until they have cooled down and spoken with an adult.
It’s 100% okay if a child who was a victim doesn’t want to speak with the aggressor. It happens sometimes, but lees often than you think. Not everything in life has a perfect closing.
Thank you all for these questions; I’m really appreciative of the dialogue we’re having
As a Deal staff member, I don’t think you work there.
Never said I did. I work at a different DCPS school
So you give a kid a timeout for hitting another student? This isn’t kindergarten we are talking about. How is the victim supposed to feel loved and supported and protected if all you do is give a timeout to the kid who deliberately hits them? The aggressor is just back in the hallway or classroom the rest of the day and the victim knows they have an even bigger target on their back.
Once again you are saying you care more about the aggressor than the victim. Don’t you think the victim can see what you are doing? Don’t you think they probably go along with your relationship building because they think they have to because they can see that you do not have their back?
Here’s the thing: Throughout all your responses here, you have demonstrated that you are more focused on the aggressor and helping them not be aggressive than you are on the victim and making the victim whole and feel safe. All the kids see this even if you don’t.
Here's the thing: I don't think you have ever seen RJ or SEL in practice. You seem fixated on this belief that the victim has no rights or doesn't receive any empathy from the school. I have some concerns about RJ, but this teacher has patiently explained the approach their school uses and it sounds like there is a good balance between protecting and supporting the victim and supporting the needs of the aggressor to become a contributing member of the school. That is what we should all want, isn't it? Suspension does not work, we should do all we can to help them become contributing members of school, and then society. We are all better off for it.
Anonymous wrote:Amazing. This is without a doubt the most racist thing I've seen on DCUM. The most fascinating part is that I don't think any of these parents mind being called racists.
Everything is racist! Questioning restorative justice is racist. Kids getting beaten up is just the cost of doing business in public schools these days! Why should anyone be suspended when they can hug it out?! Anyone who thinks differently is racist.
Anonymous wrote:Amazing. This is without a doubt the most racist thing I've seen on DCUM. The most fascinating part is that I don't think any of these parents mind being called racists.
I've read this whole thread and no one has mentioned anyone's race. DCPS is a highly diverse school system, with children and parents of many races and ethnicities. Aren't you the racist for assuming that the aggressive students being discussed here are non-white?
Pro tip: restorative justice, like violence interrupters, are not effective means of preventing bullying or lowering crime or recidivism. They are just novel new concepts to put a band aid on broader social issues. Valid studies show that their efficacy is questionable. So you can advocate for them all you want, but really you’re just hurting students by pushing feel good.
Anonymous wrote:Listen all of you. At the macro level, myself and all my wealthy colleagues who choose to benevolently send our kids to DC public schools will stop if we come to understand this town won’t do jack sht beyond “restorative justice” and other methods of watering down discipline for solve fights when actual, tangible punishment is needed.
Beyond ending ap classes and lowering standards out of “equity”, and social engineering, you might see a mass migration to private schools. You think I am kidding? Stop fking around with your Uber liberal lax on everything policies or you will see a massive decline in school quality when all the children raised in good homes leave. The only reason scores went up across the board over the last few years is because of wealthy people who took a chance. These last few years are full of idiotic policies to make classes easier or to allow bullying to continue.
Wow. I actually agree that DC and DCPS need to be less lenient on behavior issues and crime, but you didn't do anything out of benevolence. You did whatever you thought was best for your own family, including financially.
I did. I also did it because I believe in public schools. I don’t believe in overpaid and under qualified government workers and politicians pushing educational polices of questionable efficacy. Many seem detrimental. Ending ap classes. Less of a focus on the right answer. No suspensions. Restorative justice or hugs from an abuser to someone being abused. Passing kids just so the school doesn’t look bad. I am writing very plainly because really all the new jargon and euphemisms from people like Ibrahim x. Kendi, meant to push policies like restorative justice over traditional discipline are gaining traction. The disproportionate impact of racism in schools in indeed terrible, but when you water down education and discipline policies to try and counter that all you’re doing is instituting feel good hip social justice warrior stuff that really may not be of any help. My kids are going where they can learn, with motivated peers, and school administrators who are treated and treat others fairly. I don’t care if you label that tough or racist or whatever. It’s not. I want diversity at all schools everywhere. I just don’t want questionable policies that result in poor grades and bullying. Do you understand?
PP you're responding to here and I actually agree with the premise of what you're saying, but you're coming across as less than civil. But yes, DCPS is on a downward spiral with our political climate and current DC Council. If this trajectory isn't corrected, then DCPS will be set back decades and this will have terrible results for DC's poor with increased violence and worse schools abandoned by anyone who can afford to get out of DCPS/DCPCS.
I’m responding in the same blunt tone that the far left seems to employ when discussing their new school policies. It’s this “my approach is right and if you differently you’re racist” pandering and condescending message over and over again. You know why Virginia is going to turn red? It’s not because white parents are so scared and racist and don’t want their child to maybe hear about the horrors of slavery and white legacy in facilitating that terror.
They are voting red because the left is increasingly authoritarian in their views. They simply “know best”. Whether it’s on ending ap classes. Or changing race neutral entrance exams to schools like TJ or pushing lax on discipline schools polices like restorative justice to try to bridge a gap. Basically parents are not idiots and can see that liberal policies, while hearts are in the right place, can lead to worse outcomes. You can only water down school rigor and safety so much before parents react. And ready they should. We need capable future engineers, not ones who were pushed to the next grade out of fairness or to make the school pass rate better.
So I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.
I couldn't end this without adding on that the point that "wealthy students" are inflating DCPS scores, which is something I totally agree with. I hope we all remember that when people defend Mayoral Control by pointing to improvements in NAEP scores.
NP. Who is thriving in this new world utopia? What are the metrics for thriving and where do we see the results?
thriving; students of color who had to previously learn under the eye of teachers who practiced implicit or unconscious bias, which exposed them to systemic racism in a "safe" place as early as 3 or 4; students that have impulse control issues and are now being given tools to manage their behaviors (I remind parents at my school of this all the time; just because you don't see the consequence, that does not mean its not happening); students with (and without disabilities) that now have multiple means of expressing themselves in their work (rather than just through testing data).
This is how DCPS is tracking student SEL (Social - Emotional) data. https://www.panoramaed.com/blog/dc-public-schools-success-story There are decades of research that connect SEL and Academic progress. If you really don't believe me, or consider pandering, you are welcome to do some research on the topic
Not thriving: kids whose mental and emotional health are negatively affected by threats to personal safety and whose academic needs are not met due to classroom disruptions, overcrowded schools and overworked, undersupported faculty.
It’s great the kids with impulse control issues are being given tools. What do you say to the victims? What tools do they get?
I would argue that one of life's greatest skills is learning that living in a society means there will always be aggressors. We teach and role play with students starting at a very young age on skills such as self - advocacy, and when that fails, how to safely report. There will always be situations where it doesn't work out beautifully and there will always be extreme cases (just like in the real world).
I could not speak on behalf of all educators but I support this path because I believe that we will need our next generation to be an empathetic and responsible group more than anything else in the world. Do I want my students to know how to do the things I teach them, of course. But, I also think that there is a huge industrial shift going on right now and we can't be stuck thinking that everyone needs to grow up to become a doctor or lawyer. A classical education isn't as essential as it used to be in order to be a successful adult.
Whoa. Why not teach them BOTH empathy/responsibility AND math and writing and all that sort of pesky stuff?
That is, when the eleven year olds aren’t having to worry about self-advocating with bullies.
When we structure our SEL learning, we try to explicitly teach those high level skills during a 30 - 45 minute portion of Morning Meeting (in ES) and advisories in MS/HS. SEL skills such as perseverance and resiliency, are constantly folded into our academic day. For example, when a student gets a math problem wrong, we practice things such as positive self talk and ways we can bounce back from our mistakes. It's been great for students and have really changed their outlook on learning. I've heard kids go from "I'll never be good at math" to "I used to get so frustrated but now I know what to do when I'm stuck!"
I hope this clarifies your misconceptions. Let me know if you have any other questions!
Great.
What about the kids who are victims of bullies who can’t access the curriculum because they are so worried about their safety? “I’d love to be able to concentrate on this math problem but I can’t stop thinking about that kid who picks on me every day and never gets suspended. I wish I could know what to do when I am stuck in the same class with that kid.”
Good question! As part of our sessions, we teach students how to speak up if they are being bullied, or how to report if they see another student being bullied (we talk a lot about how to be an ally instead of a bystander). If a student is being bullied or feels unsafe, then the teacher is meant to support the student in first feeling safe, and then finding a solution for both students. That may mean the aggressor doing their math work in a different space while the student who was bullied works in the classroom or vice versa (this is just one example of a solution but we obviously would take it on a kid by kid basis). We want kids in school so we stretch ourselves to find ways for all students to be members of our community.
Terrific. Do you ever show the victim that the aggressive kid is being punished or at least physically removed from the school environment so the victim knows that you care that they are in fear of their physical safety? The victim should not have to work in an different space. The victim should not have the burden of trying to help find a solution for the aggressor. The solution should help the victim first.
Why is the aggressor more important than the victim?
If someone is sick and throws up on you, we want to make sure you are cleaned up and okay. We also want to make sure the purpose who was actually ill is also given care. Many bullies and aggressors are showing “symptoms” and as a school body we want to treat them and make sure they are also okay. You’re not punishing the victim by moving them to a space they feel safe anymore than you are punishing someone by giving them a new shirt.
This is a useless analogy. Someone who throws up on you because he or she is ill is usually doing so involuntarily. They have no choice not to vomit. An aggressive or violent kid bears individual responsibility for his or her choices, even if we do want to take into consideration any challenging circumstances that person might face. But again, you are taking up the cause of the aggressors here (excusing away their choices and the free will they exercised in making them) by describing it like an illness they can't control. I've worked with plenty of kids from horrific backgrounds. Most of them did not make those poor choices. It's unfair and patronizing and unhelpful to imply that all of these kids are helpless or that all of them can be coddled out of their bad behavior. Unfortunately some of them can't be. They shouldn't be allowed to impose on the kids who are in school to learn.
Gonna try to knock out a few of the most recent questions on your post so I apologize if they are not all directly to your post, PP.
Many students are acting impulsively (or involuntary) when they hit a peer or act out in some other aggressive manner. As adults we try to support them by giving them explicit lessons on how to control or replace those impulses.
To the PP asking if we temporarily remove students, yes, definitely! If I see someone hit another kid at recess they are absolutely sitting out until they have cooled down and spoken with an adult.
It’s 100% okay if a child who was a victim doesn’t want to speak with the aggressor. It happens sometimes, but lees often than you think. Not everything in life has a perfect closing.
Thank you all for these questions; I’m really appreciative of the dialogue we’re having
As a Deal staff member, I don’t think you work there.
Never said I did. I work at a different DCPS school
So you give a kid a timeout for hitting another student? This isn’t kindergarten we are talking about. How is the victim supposed to feel loved and supported and protected if all you do is give a timeout to the kid who deliberately hits them? The aggressor is just back in the hallway or classroom the rest of the day and the victim knows they have an even bigger target on their back.
Once again you are saying you care more about the aggressor than the victim. Don’t you think the victim can see what you are doing? Don’t you think they probably go along with your relationship building because they think they have to because they can see that you do not have their back?
Here’s the thing: Throughout all your responses here, you have demonstrated that you are more focused on the aggressor and helping them not be aggressive than you are on the victim and making the victim whole and feel safe. All the kids see this even if you don’t.
While your concerns are valid, I can only talk from my own experiences. In my experience that hasn’t been the case and I’m basing this on conversations I’ve had with families of students who were the “victim”, as well as students themselves. We front load the school year with these conversations and how it is important to support one another, even when an agressor “acts out”. All people make mistakes and I believe in treating them with empathy. Students appreciate this because it reinforces that their teacher cares and will support them if they make mistakes.
At the same time, students need to feel safe and their safety is of paramount importance to me. Students do need to see that you are protecting them when they feel unsafe which is why I take a no nonsense approach to anything physical I see, or any sort of language that comes across as threatening. From what I’ve read through in this thread, our fundamental difference comes out in that parents here would like a more public acknowledgment of the punishment, whereas my training and experiences find that sort of public reprimand to be “shaming” of children.
Additionally, I find nothing wrong with caring for the aggressor. I do not believe people are born evil and take my responsibilities seriously to try and support all children.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We can disagree but I hope you can also see why I train my teachers this way
Why do you put victim in scare quotes? Are you saying calling a student who is bullied a victim is not accurate?
I don’t care about a public acknowledgement of punishment. I care about the victims. I care that they see that the adults in the building prioritize their safety over the feelings of the aggressor. That they see that the adults value them enough to punish the kids who make their lives miserable in school where they are supposed to be safe.
Do you train you teachers to empathize with the “victims”?
I train my teachers to have empathy for all children. I teach our children the same. Students know that there are consequences for actions and they are explicitly taught that they may not see a peer punished and why that may be kept private.
Sometimes a 12-15 year old is having a really bad day and does something they regret. Rather than escalating that path and making it harder for them to re-enter the group, I think it is important for them to know that they can make a mistake, that they are given the tools and a trusted adult to help them fix it, and they are still a part of the community.
When a student is repeating these behaviors on a weekly or even daily basis, there are of course different strategies we use. These can include counseling, isolation during times that behaviors are more common, parent conferences, among others.
To sum it up, we are always there for our victimized students as community. We stand with them and will do what we need to make them feel safe. That can happen while also caring for a child who made a wrong decision
I am glad you mentioned the victims there at the very end. What do you do make them feel safe?
BTW, to the PPs trying to make this about race, are you assuming most victims in DCPS schools are not POC?
Anonymous wrote:Pro tip: restorative justice, like violence interrupters, are not effective means of preventing bullying or lowering crime or recidivism. They are just novel new concepts to put a band aid on broader social issues. Valid studies show that their efficacy is questionable. So you can advocate for them all you want, but really you’re just hurting students by pushing feel good.
Thank you. Of course, were you to actually say this in public, you’d get canceled, lose your job, etc.
Anonymous wrote:Amazing. This is without a doubt the most racist thing I've seen on DCUM. The most fascinating part is that I don't think any of these parents mind being called racists.
I've read this whole thread and no one has mentioned anyone's race. DCPS is a highly diverse school system, with children and parents of many races and ethnicities. Aren't you the racist for assuming that the aggressive students being discussed here are non-white?
That’s exactly what’s happening here. People are calling for a crackdown on violent behavior and everyone assumes the aggressors are black, which is super racist.
Anonymous wrote:Remember the Deal principal in the 2000’s? I can’t remember his name but all he had to do was look at a kid and they would get in line. He went to all the store owners Along Connecticut Avenue and told them if they saw any of his students acting up to call him and he would be on it right away. He made deal such a wonderful safe place. Of course it wasn’t quite as large then as it is now.
Right. Now a woke mob would gather and metaphorically burn his house down for “racism”.
Anonymous wrote:Amazing. This is without a doubt the most racist thing I've seen on DCUM. The most fascinating part is that I don't think any of these parents mind being called racists.
I've read this whole thread and no one has mentioned anyone's race. DCPS is a highly diverse school system, with children and parents of many races and ethnicities. Aren't you the racist for assuming that the aggressive students being discussed here are non-white?
That’s exactly what’s happening here. People are calling for a crackdown on violent behavior and everyone assumes the aggressors are black, which is super racist.
Anonymous wrote:Pro tip: restorative justice, like violence interrupters, are not effective means of preventing bullying or lowering crime or recidivism. They are just novel new concepts to put a band aid on broader social issues. Valid studies show that their efficacy is questionable. So you can advocate for them all you want, but really you’re just hurting students by pushing feel good.
Thank you. Of course, were you to actually say this in public, you’d get canceled, lose your job, etc.
I’m sorry people are now held accountable for their deplorable beliefs.
They are not new concept but methods backed by science.
And done correctly, things like restorative justice, Conscious discipline, behavior analysis, therapy (social worker/counselor), can certainly help.
Do you think psychology is a pseudoscience…
I work with middle schoolers who have been diagnosed with things such as ED and they are able to regulate their emotions before the end of the school year, some even go on to gen ed. And it’s all thanks to having a comprehensive school plan and classroom support.
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