How many fights did your kid see at Deal this week?

[Anonymous]

I am still for some reason surprised by the reactionary thinking that is the conventional wisdom of this forum. Of course McWhorter is showing up here. It's always skepticism of race-based justice and broad efforts at integration and fervent adherence to segregative educational opportunity-hoarding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

[Anonymous]

I am still for some reason surprised by the reactionary thinking that is the conventional wisdom of this forum. Of course McWhorter is showing up here. It's always skepticism of race-based justice and broad efforts at integration and fervent adherence to segregative educational opportunity-hoarding.

And again, just more progressive scolding than actually providing data demonstrating that the policies being espoused by the extreme left have measurable demonstrable positive outcomes.

[Anonymous]

If you think a country can get to reconciliation based on metrics, you might like the Foundation TV series on Apple TV now, but in real life, metric-based social science will never capture how you integrate a city's schools or fix a country's social divides.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Wow. It’s almost like the tried and true methods of punishment that have been instituted for centuries in schools, like suspension or expulsion for violent acts, are proven to produce better outcomes than those developed in the last few years to promote demographic “fairness”. Who knew? Maybe that also applies to criminal justice, where rather than firm consequences, we’re seeing a softer more lenient approach that somehow isn’t helping the 30% percent increase in murders and violence nationwide. But then that would make me an out of touch person and likely to be scolded for shut down for voicing that opinion. Excelsior!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Wow. It’s almost like the tried and true methods of punishment that have been instituted for centuries in schools, like suspension or expulsion for violent acts, are proven to produce better outcomes than those developed in the last few years to promote demographic “fairness”. Who knew? Maybe that also applies to criminal justice, where rather than firm consequences, we’re seeing a softer more lenient approach that somehow isn’t helping the 30% percent increase in murders and violence nationwide. But then that would make me an out of touch person and likely to be scolded for shut down for voicing that opinion. Excelsior!

I'm not sure that they have proven to produce better long term outcomes. Further, these tried and true methods do not work for a large part of the population, which is why there has been and ideological and philosophical switch to restorative justice.
I certainly don't think that I have been scolding in my approach over the past two days. I have noticed that the your tone on these messages could be perceived as rude or off-putting, which may be unintentionally projecting biases or antagonizing posters. This is a sensitive subject so it makes sense that you would feel emotional about it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

o I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.

I actually am MORE unimpressed with those credentials. IMO, part of the decline in public education started when people started getting degrees in "education" without ever actually getting credentialed in teaching any particular subject. And your tone is exactly the type of leftist authoritarian "we know best" BS that offends so many. Kids should be able to come to school confident that if they are physically assaulted, then the aggressor will be removed from the general education environment until he or she is able to self regulate. And any student who assaults a teacher or administrator needs to be placed on out of school suspension immediately. The fact that DCPS will not advocate for those basic safety measures are a large reason why 47% of kids using public education in the city choose charters.

Frankly, any student who assaults a classmate, teacher or administrator should, at the very least, be moved to an alternative school until they can regulate their behavior. If the offense is serious enough, they should be referred to the juvenile criminal justice system.

I never understood why attacking another student or an employee of a school is considered less serious than, say, assaulting the cashier at a 7-11 down the street from the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

o I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.

I actually am MORE unimpressed with those credentials. IMO, part of the decline in public education started when people started getting degrees in "education" without ever actually getting credentialed in teaching any particular subject. And your tone is exactly the type of leftist authoritarian "we know best" BS that offends so many. Kids should be able to come to school confident that if they are physically assaulted, then the aggressor will be removed from the general education environment until he or she is able to self regulate. And any student who assaults a teacher or administrator needs to be placed on out of school suspension immediately. The fact that DCPS will not advocate for those basic safety measures are a large reason why 47% of kids using public education in the city choose charters.

The shots at my education aside, I agree! Again, students (and parents) do not see every consequence. We don't shame kids while we teach them to self regulate. They may be required to take a 1:1 self - regulation class with a member of the schools Mental Health Team. They will definitely have some sort of re-entry process.

I'm sorry to say this but I feel like families need to hear it: You do not deserve to know how other people's children are being disciplined.

In fact, if my child is the victim of another child's violent, dangerous behavior, I have every right as a parent, a taxpaying citizen, and a member of the community to know precisely what is being done to protect students. That includes hearing from school administrators what disciplinary measures have been taken, and how many times an offending student is allowed to behave violently or threateningly before they are deemed in need of removal.

No you don't

Our DCPS principal thought he could stonewall us when another kid was bullying our son. He was very wrong, as our attorney made it very clear to him.

People like you roll over pretty quickly when they run into someone who is willing to advocate for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

o I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.

I actually am MORE unimpressed with those credentials. IMO, part of the decline in public education started when people started getting degrees in "education" without ever actually getting credentialed in teaching any particular subject. And your tone is exactly the type of leftist authoritarian "we know best" BS that offends so many. Kids should be able to come to school confident that if they are physically assaulted, then the aggressor will be removed from the general education environment until he or she is able to self regulate. And any student who assaults a teacher or administrator needs to be placed on out of school suspension immediately. The fact that DCPS will not advocate for those basic safety measures are a large reason why 47% of kids using public education in the city choose charters.

Frankly, any student who assaults a classmate, teacher or administrator should, at the very least, be moved to an alternative school until they can regulate their behavior. If the offense is serious enough, they should be referred to the juvenile criminal justice system.

I never understood why attacking another student or an employee of a school is considered less serious than, say, assaulting the cashier at a 7-11 down the street from the school.

Because black folks are expected to put up with foolishness from other black folks in the name of "equity." This is why I couldn't send my UMC black child to Stuart Hobson after the buffoonery I've witnessed. For all I knew, something would go down one day and every black boy with a red shirt would be a suspect.

Yes, non-black skin provides a degree of protection that wouldn't extend to my son, so I couldn't risk it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

o I can't speak for the other PPs pushing back on you but I was the one who talked about the uncomfortable change. I am a 20+ year educator who has a B.A in public policy and an M. ED in Urban Education. This isn't one parent debating another on what is correct. This is an expert in the field stating why these policies are being put into place and you not liking it. I'm sorry that your child isn't thriving in this new world but many are and we will keep moving forward with or without you.

I actually am MORE unimpressed with those credentials. IMO, part of the decline in public education started when people started getting degrees in "education" without ever actually getting credentialed in teaching any particular subject. And your tone is exactly the type of leftist authoritarian "we know best" BS that offends so many. Kids should be able to come to school confident that if they are physically assaulted, then the aggressor will be removed from the general education environment until he or she is able to self regulate. And any student who assaults a teacher or administrator needs to be placed on out of school suspension immediately. The fact that DCPS will not advocate for those basic safety measures are a large reason why 47% of kids using public education in the city choose charters.

Frankly, any student who assaults a classmate, teacher or administrator should, at the very least, be moved to an alternative school until they can regulate their behavior. If the offense is serious enough, they should be referred to the juvenile criminal justice system.

I never understood why attacking another student or an employee of a school is considered less serious than, say, assaulting the cashier at a 7-11 down the street from the school.

Because black folks are expected to put up with foolishness from other black folks in the name of "equity." This is why I couldn't send my UMC black child to Stuart Hobson after the buffoonery I've witnessed. For all I knew, something would go down one day and every black boy with a red shirt would be a suspect.

Yes, non-black skin provides a degree of protection that wouldn't extend to my son, so I couldn't risk it.

The sad thing is, I believe the supposed educator on this thread truly believes she's helping everyone with her nonsense, especially AA kids.

The reality is, in a place like DCPS, it's going to lead to more AA kids being victimized by bullies, and being forced to sit in some asinine discussion circle with their abuser. When what the victims of those bullies really need is to have their victimizers removed from the environment until they learn to regulate their behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Could you pull out a few quotes - or even one - that discusses how this approach is seen to support victims? What you write above doesn’t really address that piece.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Could you pull out a few quotes - or even one - that discusses how this approach is seen to support victims? What you write above doesn’t really address that piece.

That study didn’t really discuss RJ from the victims perspective so I’m sorry I cannot - I didn’t post it so you’d have to chat with that PP. I’m not sure why Jeff deleted my earlier post but I’m logging out of this chat, and honestly this site. I love having a good philosophical discussion but I don’t know that we’re really having a conversation as much as me trying to answer earnestly while people yell back at me. I get enough of that at school lol. Hope you all have a good night

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Could you pull out a few quotes - or even one - that discusses how this approach is seen to support victims? What you write above doesn’t really address that piece.

That study didn’t really discuss RJ from the victims perspective so I’m sorry I cannot - I didn’t post it so you’d have to chat with that PP. I’m not sure why Jeff deleted my earlier post but I’m logging out of this chat, and honestly this site. I love having a good philosophical discussion but I don’t know that we’re really having a conversation as much as me trying to answer earnestly while people yell back at me. I get enough of that at school lol. Hope you all have a good night

Yes, but you won’t accept having any of your assumptions challenged, but seem to glibly carry on, trying to convince everyone that restorative justice has no flaws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Could you pull out a few quotes - or even one - that discusses how this approach is seen to support victims? What you write above doesn’t really address that piece.

That study didn’t really discuss RJ from the victims perspective so I’m sorry I cannot - I didn’t post it so you’d have to chat with that PP. I’m not sure why Jeff deleted my earlier post but I’m logging out of this chat, and honestly this site. I love having a good philosophical discussion but I don’t know that we’re really having a conversation as much as me trying to answer earnestly while people yell back at me. I get enough of that at school lol. Hope you all have a good night

Yes, but you won’t accept having any of your assumptions challenged, but seem to glibly carry on, trying to convince everyone that restorative justice has no flaws.

I take that back. I’m sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:John McWhorter is right in his new book. Any questioning of dei efforts in school is to be met by the chiding of woke scold white allies who squelch dissent from their world view. It’s as if questioning restorative justice, or its impact on preventing or mitigating bullying, is itself a racist act these days. Enjoy the coming push back as people slowly understand that free speech is under threat. The continued infantalization of a broad segment of the population with pandering, condescending “equity” polices will have inverse consequences. Parents will leave public schools if they’re kids are guineas pigs to poorly proven restorative justice programs. They’ll also leave if their children’s class rigor is being diluted in the name fairness. You all seem to have drunk the koolaid. It was only poured in the last few years, and if anyone doesn’t want to drink it, or questions what’s in it, you appear to want them shunned or shamed. Look at the pushback. Look at Virginia polls. It’s not just a bunch of white supremacists scared of slavery talk. It’s parents saying “what the fk are these people doing? Are they going to teach? Or are they going to implement questionable educational polices that lower the bar and make our kids less safe”. So get outside your little arrogant bubbles and actually see things objectively.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope you can find time to go back through the thread - I feel like many of these concerns were addressed, but happy to respond to any specific worries if you have a particular concern.

They weren’t addressed. You threw out a claim to have educational credentials and that your controversial theories were sound because you assert they are sound. The needle has not moved an inch and everyone is still waiting to learn how restorative justice is beneficial.

There are a pretty good set of experiential examples that I thought backed up the theoretical practices I diagrammed. Please let me know if you'd like an example of how RJ looks in a situation and I can share my experiences. Happy to help talk through concerns!

There are many studies outlining the challenges of RJ actually working in schools:

https://hechingerreport.org/the-promise-of-restorative-justice-starts-to-falter-under-rigorous-research/

This was particularly concerning:

The academic performance of middle schoolers actually worsened at schools that tried restorative justice. Math test scores deteriorated for black students in particular.
The number of student arrests was similar at both treatment and control schools. That suggests the restorative justice experiment wasn’t doing much to alleviate the school-to-prison pipeline.

There's a lot of $$ being made by Restorative Justice consultants however.

Thank you for sharing the article! It was really interesting and gave me a chance to reflect on my own practice. I am pulling a few things out that I think are important from that study, which comes to a different conclusion than you originally stated.

"The biggest insight from the Maine study was how hard it is for schools to implement restorative justice even after days of teacher training, monthly consultations and visits by coaches. Students’ survey answers revealed that they didn’t experience very much restorative justice in their day-to-day classrooms even after two years of effort. Restorative justice also requires a high degree of student buy-in. Students cannot be forced to talk about their grievances face-to-face with their classroom enemies. It’s a voluntary process and not every kid wants to talk."
Much like how it is harder for a brain to learn new languages as you get older, it is the same with mindset around behavior and consequences. I am a big believer in starting these programs out in the PK years so that students have a common language and are building a skill set as they get older (which is when problems tend to become exacerbated). Since these programs are still in their infancy, these MS students were learning a brand new behavior management system, so it makes sense that it would be somewhat rejected

"“It’s not like a suspension where you send a kid out, and you’re done with it,” he said. “With restorative practices, it’s a process. You actually have to sit down, get them in a circle and talk it through. It’s tough. That’s why you have coaches and coordinators. You need some training. You can’t just react.”
Training for teachers is essential. I believe the article even referenced that some teachers were trying to implement pieces without a full understanding. I bolded the quote about how being given a suspension is being "done with it" because as soon as that kid comes back from suspension they will still need that restorative component, whether it is a re entry plan or a modified schedule. You can't just return suspended kids to class and pretend nothing happened

"Huang says it’s far “too early” to say whether restorative justice works or doesn’t work in education. “All we have are these two studies now,” he said. In addition to Huang’s Brooklyn study, another study is underway by Center for Court Innovation, also in Brooklyn.

But researchers are already confronting some of the same problems in Brooklyn that the Maine researchers found: control group schools are doing some elements on their own while treatment schools can struggle to adopt the full soup-to-nuts program. That will make it hard to show scientific evidence for restorative justice. It’s like comparing the effectiveness of flossing between a person who agreed to floss every day but doesn’t and a person who didn’t commit to flossing but is doing it anyway.

Not only is restorative justice a challenge for schools to implement, it’s also a tricky thing for researchers to study because too many students and teachers make decisions that are beyond a researcher’s control."

I pulled this quote out because I think it is important to challenge our assumptions. It seems like you assumed this article declared that RJ is ineffective; I don't believe that is a fair conclusion based on the data I shared. I think that over time, as students begin to develop these skills as their brains are forming, it will be much easier to implement in their teenage years. Thanks again for sharing that article it was really interesting!

Could you pull out a few quotes - or even one - that discusses how this approach is seen to support victims? What you write above doesn’t really address that piece.

That study didn’t really discuss RJ from the victims perspective so I’m sorry I cannot - I didn’t post it so you’d have to chat with that PP. I’m not sure why Jeff deleted my earlier post but I’m logging out of this chat, and honestly this site. I love having a good philosophical discussion but I don’t know that we’re really having a conversation as much as me trying to answer earnestly while people yell back at me. I get enough of that at school lol. Hope you all have a good night

Yes, but you won’t accept having any of your assumptions challenged, but seem to glibly carry on, trying to convince everyone that restorative justice has no flaws.

I take that back. I’m sorry.

Have a good.