Why do teachers allow horribly behaved kids to stay in the classroom and disrupt other kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The principals and school systems claim it’s the law to allow everyone in the least restrictive environment. So until parents sue to change the law nothing will change.

This is what is BS, though. For many students with severe special needs, especially emotional disabilities, the mainstream classroom is a WAY more restrictive environment than a self-contained classroom. With all of the overstimulation, with 28 other kids in the room (all potentially setting him off) a mainstream
Placement actively restricts many kids from learning.

It's entirely inappropriate and MORE restrictive. I don't understand how LRE is defined always to mean "in Gen Ed".

That's not what "restrictive" means in LRE. But it's obviously not going to be an appropriate environment for some students.

And the pressure to keep kids in gen ed classrooms mostly comes from budget constraints and a lack of staff/facilities for all of the kids that would benefit from placement in a special program. But also keep in mind some kids would be successful in general education setting if the special education services and supports were brought to th
there. While generally cheaper than placement in a special program, schools often don't want to do that, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s normally not the teachers. Especially when we’re talking about younger kids. It’s administrative/district/legislative policies and laws.

This article is a few years old, and was about a kid in Canada… but it applies to how a lot of the policies in our public schools. The states are too.

If this thread we’re commenting on interests you at all, I promise you that you’ll want to read this article.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/education/article-educating-grayson-are-inclusive-classrooms-failing-students/


Go search the subreddit for teachers on reddit about inclusion. The vast majority of teachers are just as exasperated about having their hands tied. And they note that nothing will change unless parents of other kids in their class get involved in advocating for change/contacting the media/etc.

Thank you for posting this - I unlocked the article and am reading. Wow, wow, wow at his parents (I’m a few paragraphs in.)

There’s an element that’s hard to discuss for some people. I’m 50, and have an aunt with developmental disabilities who got instruction from MCPS and she and other adult disabled learners were periodically attacked by someone during class. The distinction is that that person would be removed, and ultimately expelled. This Canadian kid deserved the expulsion and then some but the distinction is that today - or 2019 - the parents take effectively no responsibility at all, even in retrospect, even apparently internally, when their child concusses an adult, or shoots a teacher, and so on. It’s a different world. There is no community and there is quite literally zero voluntary acknowledgment of the chaos and severe injuries when and where and on whom they are inflicted by way too many parents of these kids.

[Anonymous]

for those who don't want to subscribe to the Globe and Mail, here's the article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190105224915/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/education/article-educating-grayson-are-inclusive-classrooms-failing-students/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:for those who don't want to subscribe to the Globe and Mail, here's the article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190105224915/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/education/article-educating-grayson-are-inclusive-classrooms-failing-students/

There was far too little attention paid in this to the kids who were impacted - stomachaches, anxiety - by Grayson.

The principal was standing firm on the expulsion and good on them. This kid tried to push an adult down stairs, concussed another, and was only 7. His mother was verbally abusive to staff. Thank god for that principal and for the parents who were ultimately pushed to point out that dozens of other kids were being harmed by the inclusion of this one child.

When you have children they are your responsibility. Yours. You have to take a primary role in getting them into schooling that meets their needs. It will always be a moral stain and failure for parents to insist their kids deserve gen ed when they harm others. This mother and father have means, have time, and insisted - despite there being no indication that they speak the language at home - that their boy who attacked others, merited French immersion gen ed all day school. They knew as reported that when he was overwhelmed at being academically behind, he attacked. They still resisted even leveling down to English all day gen ed school. How fkn selfish is that? They wanted him to be viewed as bright and capable in very narrow ways where he patently cannot do the work, he does not have that ability. They refuse to parent the kid that they have, and instead want the teachers to work miracles, and avoid concussions.

This story very much mirrors what ‘striving’ ‘aspirational’ UMC parents want for their heinously out of control children in my area. Kids, at the elementary level, primarily boys, who cannot do certain work without exploding and attacking. They should all be expelled. Please note, I do not seek to violate privacy by demanding a right to know about disabilities or IEPs. That’s not my role, that is the role of their parents and the school. My role is to advocate for my DC and those impacted by the out of control children. I’m only grateful that parents like the mother profiled in the Globe and Mail piece are so monstrously self-absorbed that they tell on themselves - they want a school to create a G&T well-mannered and well-socialized child when that child has no ability whatsoever to keep to those standards. They see their jobs as reproducing and nothing else. It is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

[Anonymous]

We need to revamp the law. But it’s a third rail like Social Security and Medicare.

This is where the vouchers movement is coming from. It’s not all religious nutters. It’s quietly a lot of people who want to take their education tax dollars to a school that actually meets the needs of average children, not just special children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We need to revamp the law. But it’s a third rail like Social Security and Medicare.

This is where the vouchers movement is coming from. It’s not all religious nutters. It’s quietly a lot of people who want to take their education tax dollars to a school that actually meets the needs of average children, not just special children.

Yes, or they want to get some reimbursement for books, tutoring, sports, materials, etc, to officially homeschool if they basically need to homeschool anyway due to the academic and behavioral standards being so low in the schools.

[Anonymous]

I mean, if something major doesn’t change regarding the educational rights of non disabled children, then within a generation, public schools will literally just be for IEP kids and those who can’t scrape together the money for private. I say this as a parent who used public and regrets it, and wouldn’t make that mistake again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why the F are you blaming teachers!!!! Do you think we want a kid in our class to threaten to kill us? Or a kid who hits, bites, or spits on us? Do you think we want a kid who is destroying the classroom we use our own money to decorate. Do you really believe we want a kid who is making all the other kids in the class suffer? There is NOTHING we can do.

Blame administrators- principals, special Ed. Directors, and board members who no longer allow kids to be suspended or disciplined. Or block kids from going to special Ed placements. Teachers send kids to the office and they are sent right back to our class often with a treat. We are told to “build a relationship” with the kid who is threatening to kill us or cussing us out or attacking us.

I am a university professor and department head, and I’ve been spat at, cursed at, had things thrown at me, and more this year by a couple of students. There are so many layers of bureaucracy. Everything I do to try and get rid of these students results in legal jumping down my throat, or non-faculty administrators (who have never taught) worrying about optics/legal/process. It is a crisis for these students, a crisis for our society, and a crisis for education. Ugh.

‘Get rid of these students’. Nice, op, really nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, if something major doesn’t change regarding the educational rights of non disabled children, then within a generation, public schools will literally just be for IEP kids and those who can’t scrape together the money for private. I say this as a parent who used public and regrets it, and wouldn’t make that mistake again.

^^^ pp, don’t work under the assumption that private schools are full of well behaved ideal students. It’s not. But now it will cost your $$$ to have your kid sit beside one who constantly disrupts them.

And it’s CRUSHING the school budgets. Between support costs and out of district placements and transportation.

19.2% of our town’s students are classified as special ed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why the F are you blaming teachers!!!! Do you think we want a kid in our class to threaten to kill us? Or a kid who hits, bites, or spits on us? Do you think we want a kid who is destroying the classroom we use our own money to decorate. Do you really believe we want a kid who is making all the other kids in the class suffer? There is NOTHING we can do.

Blame administrators- principals, special Ed. Directors, and board members who no longer allow kids to be suspended or disciplined. Or block kids from going to special Ed placements. Teachers send kids to the office and they are sent right back to our class often with a treat. We are told to “build a relationship” with the kid who is threatening to kill us or cussing us out or attacking us.

I am a university professor and department head, and I’ve been spat at, cursed at, had things thrown at me, and more this year by a couple of students. There are so many layers of bureaucracy. Everything I do to try and get rid of these students results in legal jumping down my throat, or non-faculty administrators (who have never taught) worrying about optics/legal/process. It is a crisis for these students, a crisis for our society, and a crisis for education. Ugh.

‘Get rid of these students’. Nice, op, really nice.

Oh. Are you back at work, this being your job, sweetheart? Did your spectrumy son make it to college and flunk out, or not quite get there? It’s this professors fault, what with her evil desire to not be physically attacked and treated as less than human, that your child has failed in mainstream education, which naturally requires that all educational opportunities for those ummmm rare students who can get through a lesson without throwing a desk or swearing should be destroyed because uh equities demand that?

Take your crazy sloppy a$$ to Special Needs.

That was my first post on the thread. My second was the one right after that about the impact on budgets.

Anyone who uses the phrase ‘get rid of them’ as it relates to kids shouldn’t be in the education field.

It’s a Friday. You should really take a deep breath and chill out. People will take you more seriously if you don’t communicate in such a caustic manner.

Peace, love and joy, my friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why the F are you blaming teachers!!!! Do you think we want a kid in our class to threaten to kill us? Or a kid who hits, bites, or spits on us? Do you think we want a kid who is destroying the classroom we use our own money to decorate. Do you really believe we want a kid who is making all the other kids in the class suffer? There is NOTHING we can do.

Blame administrators- principals, special Ed. Directors, and board members who no longer allow kids to be suspended or disciplined. Or block kids from going to special Ed placements. Teachers send kids to the office and they are sent right back to our class often with a treat. We are told to “build a relationship” with the kid who is threatening to kill us or cussing us out or attacking us.

I am a university professor and department head, and I’ve been spat at, cursed at, had things thrown at me, and more this year by a couple of students. There are so many layers of bureaucracy. Everything I do to try and get rid of these students results in legal jumping down my throat, or non-faculty administrators (who have never taught) worrying about optics/legal/process. It is a crisis for these students, a crisis for our society, and a crisis for education. Ugh.

‘Get rid of these students’. Nice, op, really nice.

Oh. Are you back at work, this being your job, sweetheart? Did your spectrumy son make it to college and flunk out, or not quite get there? It’s this professors fault, what with her evil desire to not be physically attacked and treated as less than human, that your child has failed in mainstream education, which naturally requires that all educational opportunities for those ummmm rare students who can get through a lesson without throwing a desk or swearing should be destroyed because uh equities demand that?

Take your crazy sloppy a$$ to Special Needs.

That was my first post on the thread. My second was the one right after that about the impact on budgets.

Anyone who uses the phrase ‘get rid of them’ as it relates to kids shouldn’t be in the education field.

It’s a Friday. You should really take a deep breath and chill out. People will take you more seriously if you don’t communicate in such a caustic manner.

Peace, love and joy, my friend.

Why would I be concerned about your code when whatever thing you parent is such a disaster that you try to justify attacking a college professor who describes being insulted and assaulted? Heal thyself.

So sorry your child is so repugnant that all and sundry want them elsewhere. Must be hard, eh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We need to revamp the law. But it’s a third rail like Social Security and Medicare.

This is where the vouchers movement is coming from. It’s not all religious nutters. It’s quietly a lot of people who want to take their education tax dollars to a school that actually meets the needs of average children, not just special children.

Just get a diagnosis of your own. There's something in the DSM for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can the posters who rail on about how our education system is “inadequately funded” please be specific about what they actually expect? We already spend WAY more per student than any other country on earth, sometimes by a factor of 10. What do you seriously expect? A personal 1:1 aide for every single student with a “special needs” diagnosis? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of a chance for all at public education but that doesn’t mean we support it for all students AT ALL COSTS which seems to be what some people expect. I’m happy to give everyone a chance but if they can’t function in a mainstream classroom without affecting the safety or education of others then they need to go somewhere else. And yes that might be many such kids together in a room in a special facility without sharp tools and possibly without computers or other expensive items (or behind unbreakable glass shield or something like that) and with a teacher specially trained to handle those kids who gets paid more for the knowledge and danger.

I agree with the sentiment, but cost is literally why things are so poopy for everyone and there’s a focus on mainstreaming.

Take for instance, this article from 2013 so you can imagine the increase in prices.

https://www.pullcom.com/newsroom-publications-Demystifying-The-Costs-of-Special-Education

Over at least the past decade, however, there has been a role reversal as districts recommend placements within the public schools, but many parents seek out-of-district day or residential placements. These placements are not inexpensive: one Boston-area residential facility for autistic children costs more than $400,000 a year. Similarly, a residential school for visually impaired children near Boston charges approximately $300,000. While these placements are at the high end, it is not unusual for ten-month residential programs to charge between $70,000 to $150,000. While day programs are typically less expensive, when the cost of transportation is added, a residential placement can sometimes be more cost-effective.

Meanwhile, the highest average cost per student to be educated in a mainstream classroom, in the U.S. is in NY where it’s like twenty-something thousand per student.

So, when we’re at a point where almost 1 in 5 students have special needs (of all levels, but which require extra accommodation and funding nonetheless).. what’s the answer? Honestly, what is the answer? The majority of your state and local taxes are already going to k-12 education (federal funding covers like.. 10% of k-12 budgets). If we want to adequately fund schools to the idealistic point of what so many of us call “the simple solution” where every kid regardless of ability or potential gets exactly what they need.. are you willing to pay 2,3,4+ times more state and local taxes? And if you are because you have a mid-six figure income and can afford i, do you think the other 90% of Americans who make less than $200k a year are willing/able to?

There’s not any good/heartwarming/perfect/feelgood answer here.

No, I’m not prepared to pay any more local taxes to give disruptive students more stuff to destroy. Once we pay double the cost for them as for other students, that is enough.

Kids with severe physical disabilities are similarly expensive. Should it be "too bad so sad" for them, too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, if something major doesn’t change regarding the educational rights of non disabled children, then within a generation, public schools will literally just be for IEP kids and those who can’t scrape together the money for private. I say this as a parent who used public and regrets it, and wouldn’t make that mistake again.

You know the vast majority of people can't afford private school, don't you?