A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Human anatomy never changes?

You've never cut someone open.

I've never cut someone open and I get that......

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the article:
"Enrollment rates for poor and working-class white men are lower than those of young Black, Latino and Asian men from the same economic backgrounds, according to an analysis of census data by the Pell Institute for the Journal."

"Some schools are quietly trying programs to enroll more men, but there is scant campus support for spending resources to boost male attendance and retention."

"Young men get little help, in part, because schools are focused on encouraging historically underrepresented students. Jerlando Jackson, department chair, Education Leadership and Policy Analysis, at the University of Wisconsin’s School of Education, said few campuses have been willing to spend limited funds on male underachievement that would also benefit white men, risking criticism for assisting those who have historically held the biggest educational advantages.

“As a country, we don’t have the tools yet to help white men who find themselves needing help,” Dr. Jackson said. “To be in a time when there are groups of white men that are falling through the cracks, it’s hard.”

"In 2008, Mr. Smith proposed a men’s center to help male students succeed. The proposal drew criticism from women who asked, “Why would you give more resources to the most privileged group on campus,” he said.

Funding wasn’t appropriated, he said, and the center was never built."

I saw this. I recall programs, such as, reading rewards getting cancelled in elementary school since they didn't reach the "right" kids. My son loved them and they helped boost his reading.

[Anonymous]

After several decades of life as a woman, I think men have a clear deficit in being able to plan, multitask and work cooperatively - all of which is much more prized now in school and the workplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ever notice how when women are “behind” in something, it’s usually framed in a way that minimizes the amount of control that women have over their situation. But, when men fall behind, they are assumed fully responsible for their apparent misfortune.

Actually, women ARE behind the times. They don't realize 95% of college degrees are worthless toilet paper. Men have moved on from worthless college degrees that saddle you with 20 years of debt to earn income by bypassing college altogether. 20.years from now the majority of people complaining about their $50k.in student loan debt for their deadend $15/hr job will be women. Meanwhile, guys will have spent the entire time learning trades to repair the oncoming wave of the automation of everything. Then women will cry they there is 'underrepresentation' in the lucrative 21st century trades that require no debt to learn.

Useless college degrees are so 20th century. Have fun with the debt to become a Starbucks barista.

What an ignorant hot take. Men are still going to college and still leaving with debt, the issue is most of the poor and middle class men are not graduating. So they have debt and no degree and just squander however many years pretending to be college students. These men aren't tech gurus or small business owners, they're living with their parents and failing to launch.

Newsflash: artificial intelligence and automation will wipe out 90% of white collar jobs. Even physicians and lawyers will be easily replaced in our lifetimes by machines. Those who will be poor in the future will be the idiots taking out 5 and 6 figure debt loads for a worthless peice of toilet paper to work a job that gets automated away. The winners will be the ones who learn trades to know how to repair drones, automated equipment for manufacturing and farming, and know trades to setup and service server farms. I'll laugh my ass at all of the worthless degrees in the future. But hey, maybe they will find solace in the fact that they're supposedly 'educated'.

Yeah. You’re full of shit. Interesting McKinsey report on where jobs will be gained and lost in this country. And most jobs lost will be in areas that do not require a college degree. Although some skilled trades will see and increase. Others will be automated.

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/future-of-work/jobs-lost-jobs-gained-what-the-future-of-work-will-mean-for-jobs-skills-and-wages

But, if what you are saying is men aren’t getting college degrees because they don’t want them, that’s fine. Plenty of women do. Maybe your sons can find women willing to support them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After several decades of life as a woman, I think men have a clear deficit in being able to plan, multitask and work cooperatively - all of which is much more prized now in school and the workplace.

+1. Of course planning, working creatively and cooperatively, communicating and multitasking are all thinks that cannot be effectively automated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

Modern day porn is such a scourge on our society and no one talks about it at all. Average age of initial exposure to porn is 11 and getting younger. That is horrifying. It is readily accessible to anyone with internet access. And you don’t have to go to actual porn sites to see it. Reddit has subs full of porn images. Young people think what they see online is what sex is. Violent and misogynistic imagery is the standard. It’s wrecking the sex lives of young adults. At one time we cared about protecting young people from seeing these things. That’s not the case anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this is the way it should be. Women aren’t being held down and straight, white boys aren’t getting a free pass to higher education.

But it's _all_ boys who are falling behind, just not white boys.

Take the same article but change "men" to "people of color" and schools would be lamenting the trend and looking for ways to encourage that group to apply in larger numbers, set up special programs, etc. But because it's men.. crickets.

Yes, and the lack of attention to unique issues facing males, as a group, in education manifests itself further disadvantaged boy of color. From a young age, boys who are active and don't exhibit what is viewed as ideal behavior are continuously viewed as bad and not smart. They are told that their perspectives don't matter. This is a real thing, but no one cares because they think some past advantage is being corrected. You can't correct historical injustices by teaching any children, regardless of race or gender, that they aren't capable and don't matter.

Did you read the article???

POOR WHITE BOYS HAVE LOWER COLLEGE ENROLLEMENT THAN POOR BOYS OF COLOR!!!!!!!!

White boys AND MEN from the rich to the poor are falling behind!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

You’re delusional if you think boys are dropping out or not going to college to go straight into business. Gates and Zuckerberg are not typical. Unless dad owns the business, you aren’t skipping college to go straight into business

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After several decades of life as a woman, I think men have a clear deficit in being able to plan, multitask and work cooperatively - all of which is much more prized now in school and the workplace.

I don't think that's it. Men just aren't applying to college at the same rate as women. I don't think there is a decline in the number of men applying. I think just more women are applying.

I also think some of it is that men have more competition now from women, and they can't hack it. Women try harder because they tend to have higher expectations, in themselves, and in their partners (we see that on the relationship forum).

This gender gap in college completion has been a long time in the making. In the early 1900s, when some elite colleges started opening up to women, women quickly got better grades than men, ..

Boys may also be more susceptible to short-term instant gratification than girls are, Buchmann told me. Boys may have a harder time slogging away at a college degree and paying for it when they know there are jobs available where they could get paid a decent wage, even if that job might not be a long-term proposition.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/11/gender-education-gap/546677/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Video game addiction. Vape/weed. Porn.

Laugh all you want but this is the truth. Boys as young as 4 and 5 become addicted to video games, then in their teens find vape and weed, then instead of seeking a girlfriend, then simply jerk off to porn stars.

I have quite a few 20-somethings in my family who look 20-something but act as if they stopped maturing at literally 13 or 14 years old.

Not only can they not focus on school because they have no attention span, they literally don't care about the high dating status academic success and a well-regarded career can bring. Why? Because they can simply jerk off to gorgeous babes on porno websites.

but at some point, they will become incels, and blame women for not wanting to date them.

Even if video game is the problem, what should be done about it? Blame the parents. My kids don't have an xbox, and when my DS got addicted to computer gaming when he was 12, I cut him off cold turkey. He can now manage it better. Straight A student in magnet, and still finds time to play on computer games but also socializes.

IMO, this is a parenting failure in a lot of ways.

There isn't a word more cringe and more astroturfed than "incel". Anyone who uses this derogatory word shows themselves to be an easily brainwashed dipsh*t. With a 50/50 gender mix, you realize for every "incel," there's a "femcel", right? I know your peabrain will claim that's not true, that "high-status" males are procreating and sleeping with dozens of women. No. That's not real life. Do you work in a large office? I do. Late 20s and 30-something gals are terminally single and childless at an alarming rate.

Incel is a word created and adopted by incels to describe themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a little surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the WSJ in the past few years has become a Trump Republican mouthpiece. I'm very skeptical of ANYTHING that they print.

My son (who has ADHD and loves video games) was admitted to 100% of the colleges he applied to and is doing great. Same with all his friends. Same with my nephew. Not quite sure where this sense of grievance is coming from, but I'm really skeptical of anything that WSJ tells me about it.

There is a paywall, so I couldn't read the article, but I gotta say this whole "the system has failed me" stuff sounds a whole lot like the misandry nonsense that I've been hearing forever wherein anti-social loser men claim to be "lost" because they aren't allowed to abuse women and make racist jokes anymore. As a middle aged white guy who recently went through a job search, I don't find the world hard for men. It's certainly far easier for me than for women in my life or the people of color I know.

Interesting, because my young for his grade son, who also was admitted to every college he applied to and loves video games, will be the first to tell you that he doesn't speak up in class - ever - because he is afraid he will say something wrong and realizes that, regardless, his perspective isn't welcome. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He accepts this as truth.

My younger son, who also gets good grades now that he is older, feels the same. I can assure you that neither boy is racist, woman hating, or even self-pitying. They are actually pretty insightful.

+1
Yep. Same experience here. Not self-pity, but definitely eyes wide open.

I asked my white son about this. This has not been his experience. My kid is pretty active in race and gender relations stuff at school and has actually be asked to participate more -- attend more meetings, meet with faculty, etc.

I am a college professor and I don't see it either. I am a woman, POC, and teach history to all majors but more STEM than humanities. My male students, both white and POC, feel comfortable expressing themselves in class, which often involves discussions of gender, class, race, politics, etc. in the US. However, I have noticed that female students are, in general, more organized than male students. In other words, they are better students, not smarter, but better able to meet academic expectations such as studying, handing in assignments on time, managing course loads, etc.

So, the white men in your classes feel comfortable expressing views that you may disagree with? Or are they good at telling you what you want to hear?

My DS doesn’t say that he doesn’t talk in class, but it was around middle school when I asked him what he was going to say about an assignment that could be controversial, and he very breezily said, “Don’t worry Mom, I know what the teacher wants to hear.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ever notice how when women are “behind” in something, it’s usually framed in a way that minimizes the amount of control that women have over their situation. But, when men fall behind, they are assumed fully responsible for their apparent misfortune.

Actually, women ARE behind the times. They don't realize 95% of college degrees are worthless toilet paper. Men have moved on from worthless college degrees that saddle you with 20 years of debt to earn income by bypassing college altogether. 20.years from now the majority of people complaining about their $50k.in student loan debt for their deadend $15/hr job will be women. Meanwhile, guys will have spent the entire time learning trades to repair the oncoming wave of the automation of everything. Then women will cry they there is 'underrepresentation' in the lucrative 21st century trades that require no debt to learn.

Useless college degrees are so 20th century. Have fun with the debt to become a Starbucks barista.

So what do you do, and where did you go to college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The lack of a college degree really held back Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Ted Turner, Michael Dell, and David Geffen from any real success. Poor guys.

A lot of these guys figured out what top-level NBA players know: superstars are wasting their time if they stick around college for four years.

This was my takeaway. Most people (including the educators interviewed in the article) are missing the point. The engineering and business schools still have plenty of men. Men are also skipping that step altogether and going straight into business. It’s the LACs that are becoming more and more female, and that’s been going on a while. Do you really think having liberal arts colleges become the province of women is going to make either women or liberal arts colleges more powerful? To the contrary, these schools, and those professions, will become “pink ghettos,” to the extent they aren’t already. How many times has it been posted on here that it is easier for men to get into William & Mary than UVA? There’s also been much discussion about how W&M seems to be losing ground to UVA, financially and otherwise. The two are not unrelated.

These schools have made it clear that they’re not interested in educating men (especially white men), and the men took the hint. Especially considering the rising cost of a college education, they’ve also realized that the value ROI isn’t there, anymore. The article seemed more about the schools themselves realizing that this is a problem, more so than the men whining. As these colleges become more and more expensive, they can’t afford for 1/2 of the population, especially the 1/2 that has always been more powerful in the past, to decide that their credential is unnecessary.

So, women are going to get what they want; these prestigious colleges will become “safe spaces” that prefer women. But the irony is, that in the process, the value of the degree will have been devalued.

You’re delusional if you think boys are dropping out or not going to college to go straight into business. Gates and Zuckerberg are not typical. Unless dad owns the business, you aren’t skipping college to go straight into business

How would you know? You live in the DC bubble don’t you? Do you know any teenagers that aren’t going to college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ever notice how when women are “behind” in something, it’s usually framed in a way that minimizes the amount of control that women have over their situation. But, when men fall behind, they are assumed fully responsible for their apparent misfortune.

Actually, women ARE behind the times. They don't realize 95% of college degrees are worthless toilet paper. Men have moved on from worthless college degrees that saddle you with 20 years of debt to earn income by bypassing college altogether. 20.years from now the majority of people complaining about their $50k.in student loan debt for their deadend $15/hr job will be women. Meanwhile, guys will have spent the entire time learning trades to repair the oncoming wave of the automation of everything. Then women will cry they there is 'underrepresentation' in the lucrative 21st century trades that require no debt to learn.

Useless college degrees are so 20th century. Have fun with the debt to become a Starbucks barista.

What an ignorant hot take. Men are still going to college and still leaving with debt, the issue is most of the poor and middle class men are not graduating. So they have debt and no degree and just squander however many years pretending to be college students. These men aren't tech gurus or small business owners, they're living with their parents and failing to launch.

Newsflash: artificial intelligence and automation will wipe out 90% of white collar jobs. Even physicians and lawyers will be easily replaced in our lifetimes by machines. Those who will be poor in the future will be the idiots taking out 5 and 6 figure debt loads for a worthless peice of toilet paper to work a job that gets automated away. The winners will be the ones who learn trades to know how to repair drones, automated equipment for manufacturing and farming, and know trades to setup and service server farms. I'll laugh my ass at all of the worthless degrees in the future. But hey, maybe they will find solace in the fact that they're supposedly 'educated'.

Yeah. You’re full of shit. Interesting McKinsey report on where jobs will be gained and lost in this country. And most jobs lost will be in areas that do not require a college degree. Although some skilled trades will see and increase. Others will be automated.

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/future-of-work/jobs-lost-jobs-gained-what-the-future-of-work-will-mean-for-jobs-skills-and-wages

But, if what you are saying is men aren’t getting college degrees because they don’t want them, that’s fine. Plenty of women do. Maybe your sons can find women willing to support them.

“McKinsey” *snort* LOL.