QANON/MAGA rally in Lansing, MI

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s it at all surprising that so many of you will go out of your way to defend nonviolent civil disobedience unless it doesn’t meet your purpose.
You people are hypocrites.

Those morons just infected each other and will pass it on to MeeMa in their rural towns. They literally just spread the virus all over the state because they don't know how to practice self-discipline.

If they act like spoiled children, they should get the belt.

If Donald Trump instituted a nationwide ban on public assembly and protests until there were ZERO coronavirus deaths would you be okay with that? What if he bans voting this November because coronavirus will still be around?

Tyranny is always brought on and accepted by myopic dolts like you because of national emergencies. It’s the same reason Muslims were stripped naked, tortured and treated like dogs in Abu Ghraib after 9/11. Shame on people like you for criticizing people for exercising their First Amendment freedoms. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights don’t have stipulations that they should be suspended for a virus with a .5% to 2% mortality rate.

Imagine what kind of dystopian police state you all would accept for a virus with a 25% mortality rate. Events like these really make you realize how fragile our democracy and freedoms actually are.

Trump has no Constitutional authority or ability to do either of the things you suggest. #StrawmanArgument

Yes, people can sit home for a couple weeks. The federal government needs to pay them to stay home, lest they infect their communities. 2% mortality is nearly 7 million of your fellow Americans needlessly dying.

How did you end up so damaged to view life so cheaply?

Two weeks keeps turning into another two weeks. Know why? Because if they said two months, they would have to justify why. It's not 2% mortality, btw. It's looking more like POINT 2.5 to POINT 3%. Which is why all of a sudden the way they count deaths is different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While this group seemed to be MAGA cheerleaders, I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of escalating civil unrest and leaders would do best to pay attention. You can’t throw the country into a Depression without an adequate plan to protect the people most affected by it. For instance, people have lost their health insurance just when they may need it the most- what is being done for them? I keep reading articles that the economic collapse is “worse” than expected. Really? Who didn’t see this coming??

From the start the coronavirus response has been so haphazard and reactionary.

+1

I've been saying this from the beginning. I think there will be civil unrest as this continues. Especially since clear plans aren't being given as to how and when things will reopen. I understand that we don't know exactly when things can reopen but people who are now jobless, stuck at home, with this economic stress do not care. They will reach a boiling point.

Unless or until there is widespread testing/tracing and en eventual vaccine. We are stuck. Maybe if the executive branch had heeded the warnings and planned accordingly, we would be in a better place right now. If there is uncertain and unrest, directing it to the governors is misplaced. They are not the ones who develop and approved the tests. They are not the ones who develop and approve the vaccines.

I agree, but folks can’t go to DC to protest outside federal institutions. So state and local governments will continue to be targeted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While this group seemed to be MAGA cheerleaders, I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of escalating civil unrest and leaders would do best to pay attention. You can’t throw the country into a Depression without an adequate plan to protect the people most affected by it. For instance, people have lost their health insurance just when they may need it the most- what is being done for them? I keep reading articles that the economic collapse is “worse” than expected. Really? Who didn’t see this coming??

From the start the coronavirus response has been so haphazard and reactionary.

Some of the blue states have re-opened ACA enrollment, but Trump didn't want to do that for the federally backed ACA. However, if you lose insurance due to a job loss, that is considered a life change, and you can enroll in ACA.

It's all on the federal ACA website. Maybe those folks who are complaining about this live in red states where the state leaders want ACA to die so they don't make this well known?

https://www.healthcare.gov/have-job-based-coverage/if-you-lose-job-based-coverage/

If this thing isn’t a prime example of why we need universal healthcare, I don’t know what is.

[Anonymous]

Morning Consult: 89% Dems, 72% GOP say social distancing should continue as needed.

Gallup: 89% Dems, 69% GOP say they won't return to normal life even if restrictions lifted.

Monmouth: 3% Dems, 11% GOP say Gov't went too far.

This loud "reopen" crowd is an extremist minority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Two weeks keeps turning into another two weeks. Know why? Because if they said two months, they would have to justify why. It's not 2% mortality, btw. It's looking more like POINT 2.5 to POINT 3%. Which is why all of a sudden the way they count deaths is different.

We actually have no idea because we are not doing sufficient testing or recording of cause of death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I've been saying as well. Protesters in Richmond today. Other states with small protests. If this continues without a plan or timeline to reopen, it will grow.

Trump has no plan or timeline. That IS his plan. He wants the unrest. He wants the civil disobedience. Let's start calling it for what it is.

He's had both. If he has any plan, it's now to make the governors own their own decisions. We've shut the country down on the back of bad data, and that data has come from where?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I've been saying as well. Protesters in Richmond today. Other states with small protests. If this continues without a plan or timeline to reopen, it will grow.

Trump has no plan or timeline. That IS his plan. He wants the unrest. He wants the civil disobedience. Let's start calling it for what it is.

He's had both. If he has any plan, it's now to make the governors own their own decisions. We've shut the country down on the back of bad data, and that data has come from where?

If we re-open without testing and vaccines, we will have Spanish Flu redux.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s it at all surprising that so many of you will go out of your way to defend nonviolent civil disobedience unless it doesn’t meet your purpose.
You people are hypocrites.

Those morons just infected each other and will pass it on to MeeMa in their rural towns. They literally just spread the virus all over the state because they don't know how to practice self-discipline.

If they act like spoiled children, they should get the belt.

If Donald Trump instituted a nationwide ban on public assembly and protests until there were ZERO coronavirus deaths would you be okay with that? What if he bans voting this November because coronavirus will still be around?

Tyranny is always brought on and accepted by myopic dolts like you because of national emergencies. It’s the same reason Muslims were stripped naked, tortured and treated like dogs in Abu Ghraib after 9/11. Shame on people like you for criticizing people for exercising their First Amendment freedoms. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights don’t have stipulations that they should be suspended for a virus with a .5% to 2% mortality rate.

Imagine what kind of dystopian police state you all would accept for a virus with a 25% mortality rate. Events like these really make you realize how fragile our democracy and freedoms actually are.

Very well-said!!

A few things:

1. Part of the problem is most people don't trust Donald Trump to make decisions for the benefit of Americans instead of for his own vain gain. So if he issued an order of course we'd question and dissent. That's why he should have tried hard to build trust through, I don't know, telling the truth and acting in our interest during his first three years in office. He'd have more political capital now.

2. I agree there is a tension between freedom and safety with these stay at home orders that is very hard to navigate. Again, communities with trust are more receptive to these orders, and I feel ilke - to beat a dead horse - that's why it's so important to have leaders who act in our interest (and believe in science and sht like that).

3. It's real hard to know how the first amendment is going to bump up against social distancing requirements. We'll see some interesting litigation, I imagine.

By your logic in response #1, only politicians you don’t like can subvert people’s Constitutional rights. That is completely irrational imo. The mistrust you have for Trump is the same mistrust a lot of people on the other side had for Obama. Politicians don’t get to annul the Bill of Rights and the Constitution based on how much half the country trusts them.

Part of the problem with polarization in our country IS that there's almost by definition going to be a whole lot of mistrust. Politicians can try to tamp that down by behaving with integrity - I'd expect you would see more of a rally around the flag effect in that case. Or they can do as Trump has done, and really lean into what makes hi so disgusting and despicable and untrustworthy to so many of us. You can only say "don't believe what's before your own eyes" so many times before we just think you are a no class lying POS every time you open your mouth.

Also you are begging the question when you call what's happening now "subverting people's Constitutional rights." I don't think it is, though - as I said - I'll be interested to see how inevitable litigation does. Certainly, the perception of whether your rights are being subverted depends in part on whether you trust the person making you stay home. It's kind of a vicious circle. But just to answer the most extreme part of your contention - I do think, yes, people would be willing to temporarily give up some rights if a leader they trusted said it was the only way to protect everyone. Not trusting the leader makes people less willing to comply.

Trump screwed himself by screwing us, in other words.

Good examples are Mike DeWine in Ohio or Hogan in Maryland. Democrats in those states have trusted them because he's generally been acting with integrity, relying on the scientists, not making farcical claims about the virus, and just handling this in a very serious and non-partisan manner. Republicans in those states are staying mum, because those Governors are seen as being on "their team."

But why are Republicans flipping out when Democrat governors take the same approaches as GOP Governors? My guess is that Republicans view Democrat rule as inherently illegitimate, even when Democrats are adopting the same exact policies as Republican leaders. I don't know how we fix this poisoned mindset among Republican voters. They seem to revel in spiting a policy solely because a Democrat is enforcing it, despite the Republican governor of the state next door doing the same thing.

In my view, Democrats have a significantly higher degree of social trust than Republicans. I don't know if this mistrust stems from a physiological condition, personal history, or merely projecting their own scheming ways onto others (eg., Republicans want to suppress others therefore assume everyone else will try to suppress them...which isn't true).

I listen to a fair bit of right wing talk radio to get an idea of what "conservatives" are thinking. It is nonstop complaining about Democrats and liberals and anyone not on the right as being sick, crazy, insane, weird, alien, confused, etc... Anyone working for the government is an incompetant and an unelected beaurocrat. There is mistrust of academics or subject matter experts as not having common sense. I don't watch Fox News and the others tv news outlets but I suspect it's similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I've been saying as well. Protesters in Richmond today. Other states with small protests. If this continues without a plan or timeline to reopen, it will grow.

Trump has no plan or timeline. That IS his plan. He wants the unrest. He wants the civil disobedience. Let's start calling it for what it is.

He's had both. If he has any plan, it's now to make the governors own their own decisions. We've shut the country down on the back of bad data, and that data has come from where?

He's had neither. He didn't plan, he didn't ramp up tests or supplies, he wants the incoherence and then to blame the governors. He at the same time is the stable genius that alone can fix it and also bears NO responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Two weeks keeps turning into another two weeks. Know why? Because if they said two months, they would have to justify why. It's not 2% mortality, btw. It's looking more like POINT 2.5 to POINT 3%. Which is why all of a sudden the way they count deaths is different.

We actually have no idea because we are not doing sufficient testing or recording of cause of death.

Have you tried to get tested in DC, for instance? They have NO IDEA what they are doing. I have a friend who was finally tested at Georgetown. Georgetown, the CDC and the DC Dept of Health kept passing the buck on who gets/reports the results. Some states are handling testing fine, like Oklahoma. Others? Not so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I've been saying as well. Protesters in Richmond today. Other states with small protests. If this continues without a plan or timeline to reopen, it will grow.

Trump has no plan or timeline. That IS his plan. He wants the unrest. He wants the civil disobedience. Let's start calling it for what it is.

He's had both. If he has any plan, it's now to make the governors own their own decisions. We've shut the country down on the back of bad data, and that data has come from where?

If we re-open without testing and vaccines, we will have Spanish Flu redux.

We'll have that anyway. The difference is, this virus is affecting the elderly. Most of the deaths are occurring in that population, with the lion's share at residential facilities and nursing homes, brought in by workers there, that often work in multiple facilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I've been saying as well. Protesters in Richmond today. Other states with small protests. If this continues without a plan or timeline to reopen, it will grow.

Trump has no plan or timeline. That IS his plan. He wants the unrest. He wants the civil disobedience. Let's start calling it for what it is.

He's had both. If he has any plan, it's now to make the governors own their own decisions. We've shut the country down on the back of bad data, and that data has come from where?

He's had neither. He didn't plan, he didn't ramp up tests or supplies, he wants the incoherence and then to blame the governors. He at the same time is the stable genius that alone can fix it and also bears NO responsibility.

Sure he did! How did my friend who runs a hospital in Vermont get the antibody tests? The governors will now have to prove they don't HAVE those tests and fix their clusterf*cks. Ever been to a state DMV?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Two weeks keeps turning into another two weeks. Know why? Because if they said two months, they would have to justify why. It's not 2% mortality, btw. It's looking more like POINT 2.5 to POINT 3%. Which is why all of a sudden the way they count deaths is different.

COVID 19 is going to be the #1 cause of death in the US this week. We are on track for it. Usually it's heart disease.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Two weeks keeps turning into another two weeks. Know why? Because if they said two months, they would have to justify why. It's not 2% mortality, btw. It's looking more like POINT 2.5 to POINT 3%. Which is why all of a sudden the way they count deaths is different.

COVID 19 is going to be the #1 cause of death in the US this week. We are on track for it. Usually it's heart disease.

And heart disease deaths have dropped to almost nothing. What does that tell you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s it at all surprising that so many of you will go out of your way to defend nonviolent civil disobedience unless it doesn’t meet your purpose.
You people are hypocrites.

Those morons just infected each other and will pass it on to MeeMa in their rural towns. They literally just spread the virus all over the state because they don't know how to practice self-discipline.

If they act like spoiled children, they should get the belt.

If Donald Trump instituted a nationwide ban on public assembly and protests until there were ZERO coronavirus deaths would you be okay with that? What if he bans voting this November because coronavirus will still be around?

Tyranny is always brought on and accepted by myopic dolts like you because of national emergencies. It’s the same reason Muslims were stripped naked, tortured and treated like dogs in Abu Ghraib after 9/11. Shame on people like you for criticizing people for exercising their First Amendment freedoms. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights don’t have stipulations that they should be suspended for a virus with a .5% to 2% mortality rate.

Imagine what kind of dystopian police state you all would accept for a virus with a 25% mortality rate. Events like these really make you realize how fragile our democracy and freedoms actually are.

Trump has no Constitutional authority or ability to do either of the things you suggest. #StrawmanArgument

Yes, people can sit home for a couple weeks. The federal government needs to pay them to stay home, lest they infect their communities. 2% mortality is nearly 7 million of your fellow Americans needlessly dying.

How did you end up so damaged to view life so cheaply?

Right now in states across the country religious services are banned and liquor stores are open. They are banned regardless of what safety precautions people take. For example there is no stipulation that I’ve seen that people can hold services even if congregants are spaced 10 feet apart, wearing masks, and the service is held outside.

How is it even legal for governors to violate people’s rights to practice religion and to publicly assemble? How is it legal to ban people’s rights to protest? If Donald Trump ordered Border Patrol agents to shoot anyone crossing the border illegally and people - rightly - protested in front of the White House, would you be fine with him making the protest illegal because of coronavirus, even 10 months from now when it’s still around and we don’t have a vaccine?

Just think how dangerous these precedents are and how willing your fellow citizens are willing to curtail their Constitutional rights because of a virus with a .5% to 2% mortality rate. Now just imagine what kind of tyrannical dictatorship people would be willing to accept if we had a far deadlier virus or suffered a nuclear attack. It’s frightening to think about how so many Americans would just throw all their freedoms away in a more severe crisis. This same kind of blind obedience to power in a time of crisis is why FDR was able to throw Japanese people in internment camps.

This has been an issue that has bothered me since 9/11. The majority of both the left and right willingly traded away rights for illusions of safety. We've also been willing to give our rights up to corporations in exchange for toys or convenience. I don't think democracy in it's present form can survive much longer. We need something that can protect our rights better while allowing better national policy coordination. I don't know what that would look like.