Teach Me to Raise an "Upper-Middle Class" Child

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a poor immigrant family. We now have a seven figure HHI. I just try to expose my children to a lot of things. They know how to swim because I consider it a life skill that my parents did not teach to me.

If you went to HYP, I find it hard to believe that you don't know what an upper middle class lifestyle is. We want our kids to know the basics - how to play tennis, golf, ski, swim, etc. we vacation often. We eat out.

We are not and never will be country club people and that is fine. We have friends from all different backgrounds.

I went to HYP and don't know how to play tennis, golf, or ski and I swim poorly. Yikes! Better return my three Ivy League decrees!

Didn't you have to pass a swimming test before you graduated? It was required at Princeton when I went and I understood at Harvard and Yale too. Undergraduate lore was that the swimming test was instituted after the Titanic sunk and some graduates were lost because they didn't know how to swim. Always unclear how much knowing how to swim would have helped in the frigid waters.

It wouldn't have helped at all. Most people drown in cold water in seconds due to cold shock.

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/WhatIsCold.html

What?? this cannot be true. Is it?
signed,
lower middle class person

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

Not that poster, but I'm 36, and my Dad was a law firm partner, so we were comfortably upper middle class. And yet I butter my bread wrong. If I ever heard of it before, I've totally forgotten. Maybe people have been secretly judging me all this time. Oh well. Frankly I think the focus on etiquette as a marker of class may be somewhat regional. My DH's family can be weird and formal about stuff like that even though in many respects they are far more working class than my family. But they are from up North. I'm from the South, and people don't generally focus on formalities as a sign of class status. Politeness and chivalry are a pretty big deal, but politeness is judged by how you relate to others, not table manners and knowing where to put a spoon.

It may be regional, but I think you're from a different part of the South than I am. My southern family was not rich, but very focused on table manners (including the bread/butter thing), and formalities as a sign of class status. It was drilled into us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a poor immigrant family. We now have a seven figure HHI. I just try to expose my children to a lot of things. They know how to swim because I consider it a life skill that my parents did not teach to me.

If you went to HYP, I find it hard to believe that you don't know what an upper middle class lifestyle is. We want our kids to know the basics - how to play tennis, golf, ski, swim, etc. we vacation often. We eat out.

We are not and never will be country club people and that is fine. We have friends from all different backgrounds.

I went to HYP and don't know how to play tennis, golf, or ski and I swim poorly. Yikes! Better return my three Ivy League decrees!

Didn't you have to pass a swimming test before you graduated? It was required at Princeton when I went and I understood at Harvard and Yale too. Undergraduate lore was that the swimming test was instituted after the Titanic sunk and some graduates were lost because they didn't know how to swim. Always unclear how much knowing how to swim would have helped in the frigid waters.

It wouldn't have helped at all. Most people drown in cold water in seconds due to cold shock.

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/WhatIsCold.html

What?? this cannot be true. Is it?
signed,
lower middle class person

pp wasn't very clear, but I think they were referring to the Titanic. They were in the far North Atlantic, and those that went into the water died of exposure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

Not that poster, but I'm 36, and my Dad was a law firm partner, so we were comfortably upper middle class. And yet I butter my bread wrong. If I ever heard of it before, I've totally forgotten. Maybe people have been secretly judging me all this time. Oh well. Frankly I think the focus on etiquette as a marker of class may be somewhat regional. My DH's family can be weird and formal about stuff like that even though in many respects they are far more working class than my family. But they are from up North. I'm from the South, and people don't generally focus on formalities as a sign of class status. Politeness and chivalry are a pretty big deal, but politeness is judged by how you relate to others, not table manners and knowing where to put a spoon.

It may be regional, but I think you're from a different part of the South than I am. My southern family was not rich, but very focused on table manners (including the bread/butter thing), and formalities as a sign of class status. It was drilled into us.

Preoccupation with etiquette is actually a middle class marker. I'm not trying to be a jerk in saying this- I like to read books and studies about the American class system and that's where I'm getting this from. Class-secure UMC and upper class are less concerned about table manners along with their issues of presentation. They tend to have manners because they were raised around them but will also break the rules for comfort or practically, whereas the Middle class is rigid about table manners and will wrongly assess other people's class due to their faulty belief that rigid etiquette = high class. Regarding the right way to eat bread, since there are wide variances internationally, eat the bread any way you want. Just put the butter on your plate one time and serve yourself butter from there. My personal observation is that buttering one bite at a time tends to be de rigeour among the class insecure.

[Anonymous]

13:07 here. And responding to the original question. I'm in the same boat as you (which may be why I read books about social class). I married a working class guy whose father's employment took him all over the world so he speaks several languages, and the working class ethos actually fits in well with the wealthy so we tend to get along well with the 1% (as you identify yourself). My advice is to be yourself. Raise your kids as yourself. It's you and your methods that allowed you to ascend from a drug infested hovel to your nice townhouse. But, also read about class so that you feel more comfortable and confident in social situations. And sign your kids up for swimming classes and other sports that make for good vacations-- skiing, tennis, etc- NOT because you want them to be UMC but because it will make your vacations more fun. You do you. If people judge you as having insufficient pedigree to be friends, they aren't worth hanging out with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

Not that poster, but I'm 36, and my Dad was a law firm partner, so we were comfortably upper middle class. And yet I butter my bread wrong. If I ever heard of it before, I've totally forgotten. Maybe people have been secretly judging me all this time. Oh well. Frankly I think the focus on etiquette as a marker of class may be somewhat regional. My DH's family can be weird and formal about stuff like that even though in many respects they are far more working class than my family. But they are from up North. I'm from the South, and people don't generally focus on formalities as a sign of class status. Politeness and chivalry are a pretty big deal, but politeness is judged by how you relate to others, not table manners and knowing where to put a spoon.

It may be regional, but I think you're from a different part of the South than I am. My southern family was not rich, but very focused on table manners (including the bread/butter thing), and formalities as a sign of class status. It was drilled into us.

Preoccupation with etiquette is actually a middle class marker. I'm not trying to be a jerk in saying this- I like to read books and studies about the American class system and that's where I'm getting this from. Class-secure UMC and upper class are less concerned about table manners along with their issues of presentation. They tend to have manners because they were raised around them but will also break the rules for comfort or practically, whereas the Middle class is rigid about table manners and will wrongly assess other people's class due to their faulty belief that rigid etiquette = high class. Regarding the right way to eat bread, since there are wide variances internationally, eat the bread any way you want. Just put the butter on your plate one time and serve yourself butter from there. My personal observation is that buttering one bite at a time tends to be de rigeour among the class insecure.

OP, last thing you want to do is to come across as a desperate social climber. Be yourself, observe others, take on board what you like and think is practical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had to google "Cotillion". Guess that pretty much means I grew up poor and probably still am

Don't worry, I also had to google it, and I am English landed gentry. Maybe this is a very specific to DC thing?

It's southern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

I'm am 45 and raised UMC and never heard about the butter thing. My parents and I also don't have a stick up my butt so.....

Do what you want with your butter! YOLO.

Having good manners means a person is uptight?

Uptight = Spending any length of time thinking about how anyone butters their bread

But those "uptight" UMC people might be judging you. If you don't care, then fine. I thought one of the reasons nouveau riche wanted to know what UMC behaviors are is so they can pass for UMC and not for freewheeling first generation cash money holders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

I'm am 45 and raised UMC and never heard about the butter thing. My parents and I also don't have a stick up my butt so.....

Do what you want with your butter! YOLO.

Having good manners means a person is uptight?

Uptight = Spending any length of time thinking about how anyone butters their bread

+1 pat of butter

Our networth is $10M and I take a pat of butter or a scoop of butter and place it on my plate. Sometimes I butter the entire slice of bread at once and bite off one piece at a time. Other times I tear a bite size piece, butter it and then eat it.

It all depends on my mood and kind of bread.

You made the $10 million, rather than receiving it by inheritance, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's an anonymous message board, so I'm going to lay it all out. We're affluent--DH earns enough in DC to put us in the top 1%, income-wise, that is. I'm not going to say we're rich, since there's no intergernational money. We have a nice townhome in a neighborhood with similarly situated (or better) people. Can you help me crack the code to raising children who will fit in with our "peers"? I put that in quotes because while we earn roughly what they do and both went to the same schools (HYP and equivalents), we do not come from similar upbringings (think drug addicted parents, hunger and stints living in motels).

Moreover, the American tendency to pretend class doesn't exist makes it all the harder to fit it. I know people don't like to call themselves rich or upper class, but dammit, the people I live with are rich and upper class. If I told them I came from a lower class and needed help navigating their world, they'd probably have a heart attack and say I was being dramatic. But class exists, and there's so much I don't know.

For example, I had no idea that I needed to enroll my kid in swim lessons. If you think this is a weird example, that means you probably grew up in a much higher social class than I did...trust me, ability to swim is a huge class divider. There are so many small, probably meaningless things TO YOU, that I don't know.

Anyhow, we were invited to a couple beach homes this summer, my kid was the only one who couldn't swim. Oops. I also learned many of the kids are already starting piano lessons. They get on buses every day to go to camp in the country. Oh, and in a few years, they will be go sleep away camps. Some girls are in a Girl Scout troop, which is full--I wish I'd known earlier. Also, get them into Sidwell now, even though it's expensive, because it guarantees their spot in upper school. And here I was planning on public until middle school. Oops again.

I know class and money are touchy issues. This is going to sound crazy, but I still feel working class. We have to work for what we have. No trust funds or massive stock options here. In that sense, I feel working class and want to provide what's best for the kids, but not too much. No horseback riding and first class trips. But yes to Girl Scouts and swimming lessons. What else am I missing for an upper-middle class lifestyle?

BTW, I want to make it clear that I don't think we're so awesome because we earn well. We got lucky, and I'd like to milk it for all it's worth.


Thanks in advance for any advice. I'm an introvert and haven't made many new friends here. I feel like an outsider here, as I do at home now. Not to minimize the struggle of being an immigrant, but it sometimes feel (a little) like I'm in a new country. I like it here, too. I just don't know how to fit in yet. Any advice welcome. TIA again!

Hire a friggin paid professional to mentor you if you're not up to the task of raising your own kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former equestrian here. Surprised by all the hate we are getting! Have ya'll ever been in a horse barn? You're taught to tack and muck out your own horse. It's a dirty endeavor most horse people I know are super down to earth and not afraid if getting a little dirty.

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing as I read people's replies.

It's because it's an expensive hobby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the butter discussion fascinating! I had no idea that you are not supposed to butter your whole piece of bread

Really? You are either young (under 35) or not raised UMC.

Not that poster, but I'm 36, and my Dad was a law firm partner, so we were comfortably upper middle class. And yet I butter my bread wrong. If I ever heard of it before, I've totally forgotten. Maybe people have been secretly judging me all this time. Oh well. Frankly I think the focus on etiquette as a marker of class may be somewhat regional. My DH's family can be weird and formal about stuff like that even though in many respects they are far more working class than my family. But they are from up North. I'm from the South, and people don't generally focus on formalities as a sign of class status. Politeness and chivalry are a pretty big deal, but politeness is judged by how you relate to others, not table manners and knowing where to put a spoon.

It may be regional, but I think you're from a different part of the South than I am. My southern family was not rich, but very focused on table manners (including the bread/butter thing), and formalities as a sign of class status. It was drilled into us.

Preoccupation with etiquette is actually a middle class marker. I'm not trying to be a jerk in saying this- I like to read books and studies about the American class system and that's where I'm getting this from. Class-secure UMC and upper class are less concerned about table manners along with their issues of presentation. They tend to have manners because they were raised around them but will also break the rules for comfort or practically, whereas the Middle class is rigid about table manners and will wrongly assess other people's class due to their faulty belief that rigid etiquette = high class. Regarding the right way to eat bread, since there are wide variances internationally, eat the bread any way you want. Just put the butter on your plate one time and serve yourself butter from there. My personal observation is that buttering one bite at a time tends to be de rigeour among the class insecure.

God this is so true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Given that this is the money and finance forum, I am surprised at how few responses are focused on money management.

I have been around UMC from a variety of cultures and one thing they all seem to have in common is careful husbandry of resources. There are a few things they won't skimp on--books, education, and travel are typical--but otherwise purchases are made carefully weighing costs vs. benefits. (This may not be the case with the newly rich.)

Children often are taught to manage money through an allowance. Usually this is not tied to chores--those are things you do because you are a member of the family and you are supposed to pull your weight.

Rather, regular allowances are given to teach children how to weigh costs vs. benefits in terms of what they spend. Usually, it is not particularly generous. Allowance is never withheld for any reason, including as a disciplinary measure. (This could change in later years if a substance abuse problem is suspected. )

Clear rules about what the allowance is supposed to cover are set up front. Children are strongly encouraged to save part of their allowance, and many families encourage a portion be set aside for donations. For example, if the child is given five dollars a week, the recommendation may be to save $1 and contribute $1 as a donation.

The allowance is a valuable UMC tool for teaching both careful spending and the obligation to help those who are less fortunate.

I agree with this. Is this UMC specific because the wealthy are never taught to live within particular means, and the poor don't have enough money to know how to manage it, much less teach their children how to do so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow.

Literally nobody cares.

It's ALL in your head.

Um, yeah, people do care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a poor immigrant family. We now have a seven figure HHI. I just try to expose my children to a lot of things. They know how to swim because I consider it a life skill that my parents did not teach to me.

If you went to HYP, I find it hard to believe that you don't know what an upper middle class lifestyle is. We want our kids to know the basics - how to play tennis, golf, ski, swim, etc. we vacation often. We eat out.

We are not and never will be country club people and that is fine. We have friends from all different backgrounds.

I went to HYP and don't know how to play tennis, golf, or ski and I swim poorly. Yikes! Better return my three Ivy League decrees!

Did you go on full scholarship?