Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PUBLIC SCHOOL, people. IF you don't like it pay for private. it's that simple

Is this Monifa responding or just the parent of a bully?

So kids should be bullied if their parents can’t pay for private?

We aren’t talking about preferences not being honored or parents and students being annoyed.

We are discussing kids who are not just disruptive but violent/threatening to other kids. But in your mind, parents of victims should put their child in private and let the bully find someone else. There is nothing the school should do?

Still don't get these posters trying to denigrate Dr. McKnight by calling her Monifa. It's a dead giveaway they're racist and horribly biased.

You can almost hear them mispronouncing her name in an exaggerated way. They think her name is something to be mocked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PUBLIC SCHOOL, people. IF you don't like it pay for private. it's that simple

Is this Monifa responding or just the parent of a bully?

So kids should be bullied if their parents can’t pay for private?

We aren’t talking about preferences not being honored or parents and students being annoyed.

We are discussing kids who are not just disruptive but violent/threatening to other kids. But in your mind, parents of victims should put their child in private and let the bully find someone else. There is nothing the school should do?

Still don't get these posters trying to denigrate Dr. McKnight by calling her Monifa. It's a dead giveaway they're racist and horribly biased.

Calling someone by their name is racist? Do you realize how insane and delusional you sound?

People refer to Beidleman as Joel and not Dr. Beidleman and no one calls them racist for that. You Monifa sycophants are deranged and detached from logic. Which says more about Monifa than her critics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PUBLIC SCHOOL, people. IF you don't like it pay for private. it's that simple

Is this Monifa responding or just the parent of a bully?

So kids should be bullied if their parents can’t pay for private?

We aren’t talking about preferences not being honored or parents and students being annoyed.

We are discussing kids who are not just disruptive but violent/threatening to other kids. But in your mind, parents of victims should put their child in private and let the bully find someone else. There is nothing the school should do?

Still don't get these posters trying to denigrate Dr. McKnight by calling her Monifa. It's a dead giveaway they're racist and horribly biased.

You can almost hear them mispronouncing her name in an exaggerated way. They think her name is something to be mocked.

Totally! Anyone referring to Dr. McKnight by her first name clearly has issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the law.

These type of kids used to be suspended and then if they continued to be a problem they would be in separate special ed classes.

Kids no longer get discipline in school so they can just roam around in the classroom. Separate special ed classes no longer exist.

Taxpayers need to work at changing the laws so that all kids get a peaceful classroom that kids can learn in.

This is somewhat of a misinterpretation of the SpEd laws. Least restrictive environment doesn’t not automatically mean gen-ed nor does it allow disruption of other students. However schools systems don’t want to pay for more SpEd positions. Parents want full inclusion. And school systems want to avoid anything that could open them up to law suits regarding racial disparities or SpEd laws. The end result is full inclusion with lack of support for staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the law.

These type of kids used to be suspended and then if they continued to be a problem they would be in separate special ed classes.

Kids no longer get discipline in school so they can just roam around in the classroom. Separate special ed classes no longer exist.

Taxpayers need to work at changing the laws so that all kids get a peaceful classroom that kids can learn in.

This is somewhat of a misinterpretation of the SpEd laws. Least restrictive environment doesn’t not automatically mean gen-ed nor does it allow disruption of other students. However schools systems don’t want to pay for more SpEd positions. Parents want full inclusion. And school systems want to avoid anything that could open them up to law suits regarding racial disparities or SpEd laws. The end result is full inclusion with lack of support for staff.

Maybe. But at least part of the problem is that it takes months to complete the evaluation process that can lead to a move.

I remember many conversations with the school staff about how we all knew what the end result would be but they had to do their due diligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the law.

These type of kids used to be suspended and then if they continued to be a problem they would be in separate special ed classes.

Kids no longer get discipline in school so they can just roam around in the classroom. Separate special ed classes no longer exist.

Taxpayers need to work at changing the laws so that all kids get a peaceful classroom that kids can learn in.

This is somewhat of a misinterpretation of the SpEd laws. Least restrictive environment doesn’t not automatically mean gen-ed nor does it allow disruption of other students. However schools systems don’t want to pay for more SpEd positions. Parents want full inclusion. And school systems want to avoid anything that could open them up to law suits regarding racial disparities or SpEd laws. The end result is full inclusion with lack of support for staff.

Maybe. But at least part of the problem is that it takes months to complete the evaluation process that can lead to a move.

I remember many conversations with the school staff about how we all knew what the end result would be but they had to do their due diligence.

It doesn't have to take months. But it does have to be completed in a couple of months. And MCPS almost always lets it drag on as long as they're legally allowed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

They are far too small, because mcps doesn't want them to be segregated

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

There were schools with extra security

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

They are far too small, because mcps doesn't want them to be segregated

I don’t know. I see MCPS really trying to address the issues. There are more programs in the schools. They added a new ESESES. But it’s not that simple. It’s not like there are a ton of tried and true resources that meet all of the legal requirements and can be staffed. It’s a changing landscape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't actually experienced this in MCPS, but I've dealt with these issues in other jurisdictions. Generally speaking the answer is that it's cheaper to keep them in mainstream classes.

I have. Kid who was danger to self and others in my kid's K years ago. At b2s night, the parent looked very concerned saying that kid's IEP required 1 on 1 supervision. Don't know how county saw fit to place him in general K. School had to assign floating aide to this class for this kid, limiting aide's usefulness across school. When aide moved out of area, the principal herself was often in the classroom. I volunteered alot and saw behavior. When I met with principal she looked exhausted and essentially hinted to go over her head, knowing it wouldn't look good for her. I did, documenting the behaviors I witnessed and the potential harm to kids and liability to mcps (also mentioned how much effort school had put in to deal with the situation). Kid was moved into a special program a week later. This was over 10 years ago, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because of parents who refuse to believe their “little angels” are the problem and instead blame schools and teachers for their kids’ bad behavior and the admins and school boards who enable and coddle those parents.

No it isn't. There is nowhere else for those parents to put their kids unless they can afford a lawyer.

I’m a school counselor. This PP is correct. There used to be more options. Now it’s the “home school” model. Only they didn’t allocate enough resources to the home school, so it’s a set up for failure.

NP- can you talk about what other options there used to be? I'm very interested in learning more. I know we didn't have problem behaviors when I was in school, but I was a kid and wasn't aware of other places or where they went.

DP here. So people have raised this multiple times.. why can't virtual school be an option for those kids who misbehave, bully, etc? Seems to me that it's the most appropriate and less expensive choice. If your kid is a bully, causes fights, is disrespectful, causes harm to others, etc. then they should be "kicked out" of in-person school and provided virtual schooling for x amount of time depending on the severity of the case.

The problem with this approach is that we live in a society. Yes, it would be better for my individual kid for the other individual kid to get kicked out of school. However, on a population level, it is BAD to effectively condemn a huge swathe of our youth to finishing their education at 3rd grade, or 7th grade, or whatever. The same issues (whether they are related to disability, trauma, or home life) that keep a child from learning in the classroom are going to keep them from learning at home. So then what. In 10 years we have a feral gang of children who were sent home to finish their education online back when they were 9?

So the other option is the return of special schools that used to accommodate these types of students; but that's no longer on the table. If virtual schooling is also not a viable option, then the only other option is to leave the kids in the mainstream classroom; which is fine but if the system eliminates discipline and drastically reduce suspensions (which they have), then that too is unacceptable. So what's more important? To pacify a small group that causes harm or to ensure that the majority of students are getting a decent and equitable education?

It’s not that specialized schools, classes and programs are no longer in the table, but funding and program model don’t seem to be. Specialized schools and classes requirement space, people and funding. Also, kids should not be regulated there once they are able to exhibit changes in their behavior. There should be a model to reintegrate and stabilize them into a Gen Ed classroom.

Everyone cries as if we spend no money on special ed. Hiring individual aides to accompany kids around all day is already expensive. Holding endless IEP meetings where nothing is accomplished is expensive. Hiring and training new teachers to replace the ones who are driven out by bad behavior is expensive. Declining skills and knowledge in our kids is expensive. Money is not the reason why special schools went away, and it won't be the reason why they won't come back. These administrators do not want to bring back special "rooms" or "schools" filled with black and brown kids. That's the reason.

Are you really not aware of the existing special education programs within MCPS?

Are you really not aware of the limiting of programs that has occurred- especially in elementary? LAD programs used to be 6 kid classrooms, now they are gone and in their place is full inclusion in the home school model. SESES used to be around 6 kids- now they are up to 11 with less support. Newcomers with interrupted education used to have separate schools- now they are fully mainstreamed with 0 support (don’t even get me started about the horrible SLIFE program). Learning Center programs used to be small self contained classes filled with diploma bound students- no more. Now they are a mix of diploma and certificate students and with class sizes up to 18!! 18 all with insane IEP’s. Autism programs used to have close to a 1-1 ratio. NOPE. Now they’re a 1-2 people trying to corral 5-6 highly impacted students.

Now combine all this with the behavior issues we are seeing with our NT children, and we have quite the mess.

A classroom can be managed when there are 1-2 challenging children. But there’s no hope with our current classroom compositions. Things have gone too far and we need to return to more options for education. One size does not fit all!

[Anonymous]

A student in my child’s class was dangerous and destroyed the classroom on multiple occasions. It took him nearly the entire year to end up leaving our school; after traumatizing our child and his friends, as well as the teacher. It was awful and the school used the limited resources to essentially keep this child in a separate room from his classmates. What a drain on resources and the teacher could barely teach bc when he was in the room, he required constant supervision. Moving forward if this happens again, I have a lawyer to protect my child from other violent children. The school cared but the system did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A student in my child’s class was dangerous and destroyed the classroom on multiple occasions. It took him nearly the entire year to end up leaving our school; after traumatizing our child and his friends, as well as the teacher. It was awful and the school used the limited resources to essentially keep this child in a separate room from his classmates. What a drain on resources and the teacher could barely teach bc when he was in the room, he required constant supervision. Moving forward if this happens again, I have a lawyer to protect my child from other violent children. The school cared but the system did not.

I have a student like this in my elementary class this year. He moved to MCPS after coming from several different districts in the past few years. He does little to no work the entire day that he's at school. He inevitably ends up wandering around the room distracting his classmates. After a few minutes of this he begins knocking items off of bookshelves, desks, and counters. He then ramps it up and begins kicking desks, the trash can, etc. Pretty much anything he can do to create a scene he will attempt. He becomes non-verbal during this episode and won't respond to any questions or demands. My class has learned that when this happens I always announce that we need a bathroom break and I text my administration to come to my room.

I usually come back from the bathroom break with my class and the student has been removed to another location. Admin can't put their hands on him unless he becomes extremely unsafe so we spend a great deal of time out of the class on the bathroom break until the student willingly moves to another location. He leaves the room trashed and we spend about ten minutes trying to straighten up again and remember where we left off in the middle of a lesson. This happens almost daily once in the morning and then about 10 minutes after recess. So for only being able to remain in my gen ed classroom for twenty minutes daily, he destroys the room at least twice and causes so much disruption to learning.

Mom works two jobs and there's no dad in the picture. Mom can't miss work for meetings so we're proceeding with a FBA without her. It's apparent that he has moved so often that he's slipped right through the cracks. I'm so frustrated that he's made it to fourth grade with nothing in his files noting these behaviors. We're starting from scratch and I imagine we will continue this cycle of disruption for the rest of the year.

[Anonymous]

^^ this is an active situation, you haven't named him but you should not be sharing this level of detail.