What's a good/healthy/tear-free way for Ex-H to end each visit with DS instead of just sneaking off?

[Anonymous]

He doesn't want to deal with the 2-yr-old's tears, so he just distracts him and jumps out the door. Sometimes, this works really well and DS is easily swept up in dinner time or playing in the backyard. Other times, he really notices and gets very upset.

My ex actually brings DS home from daycare most days. Before, he used to stick around until after dinner, so that was a natural conclusion to their time together. It was something that DS could anticipate.

Now though, ex is just as likely to drop him off, stopping only long enough to futz with his iPad a bit before heading right back out. Or, he'll watch part of a football match but leave before starting dinner. He used to take him to the park on the way home, which made just dropping him off the natural goodbye moment. It's just so random now and unpredictable.

We haven't talked about what these visits mean. [If we knew how to talk, we wouldn't be exes.] He was recently out of town for a few days, so I've brought up 1) the idea that these visits are bonding time and important to DS, and 2) there should be some way that they regularly say goodbye so that DS won't be anxious about him popping out or confused once he notices he's gone.

What do you do to provide a calm transition?

[Anonymous]

maybe your Ex gives DS something "special" to "take care of" when he leaves??

[Anonymous]

Why is he not staying for dinner anymore? We separated when our kids were 5 y and 18 m. The split was especially hard on the oldest and separation after visitation was hard. Our routine was (and still is) that Ex came over for dinner and helped with bed and bath. I make dinner and clean up. The degree to which I participate in visit is based on my entirely ad hoc assessment of - can we not fight? does he seem overwhelmed by juggling the 2 kids, meal prep, keeping to bedtime, etc. I try to make the visits totally no pressure for him. We stick to routine days, but have flexibility to reschedule. After dinner and bath, he reads a book to them and then tucks them in. I go in to say good night after. In this way our routine mimics what happened in our house before. Only difference is that he is not there the next morning.

This sounds lame, like I'm totally catering to my Ex, but I do what I can (within reason) to make visitation painless for him. I don't bring up issues between us. It's all about him having a good time with kids.

[Anonymous]

They say that leaving without a good-bye is harder on kids, easier on adults.

Tell him that DS has a hard time with him leaving, so maybe they can come up with a routine that works, such as taking care of something, like PP mentioned. Or silly things - like a pinky promise to be good until when daddy sees him tomorrow. Or maybe a book read to him. But at this age, routines mean everything, so ask ex to figure out a goodbye routine.

[Anonymous]

I may be out of place since I'm not divorced and am only analogizing, but wanted to offer an idea. My DD has been in daycare for a year, she's now 18mos, and still cries most days at drop off. In the last week or so, we've tried something new. Starting with wakeup we say "Today you go play at DCP's! You'll see Emma and Jacob and your friends. Mommy willl go to work, but Mommy always comes back and I'll see you after your nap and snacktime." We repeat that 2 or three times during the course of the morning in a very upbeat tone, reminding her of the fun she'll have while Mommy and Daddy are at work. Say it again at daycare while I give kisses and hugs. In this last week or two, we've now had tears only once.

Maybe your ex can try something similar? At 2, your DS can now understand enough and has appreciation for routine and/or knowing what comes next. That way, DS isn't caught off guard when his dad heads out.

[Anonymous]

This is probably just a phase, and it will pass. At around that same age, my daughter was still crying every day when I left her at daycare. (on the bright side, she was REALLY excited to see me every night.) My ex has my daughter twice a week, so there's a mom-to-dad (or vice versa) transition at least once a week. We just treat it like no big deal, say goodbye with something like "I love you. I'll see you Wednesday" and we get out the door.

And like another PP, we also really "sell" everything that happens so she'll get excited about it. I even conned her into going to multiple open houses with me every weekend for a month (and being ok with it) by telling her, "We're going on an adventure! We're going to find a house!" I think you can talk kids into almost anything if you make it sound really, really exciting. (my daughter eats broccoli because the stalks are little "trees.")

[Anonymous]

I would try to start a routine aka when you see dad start to sneak out DS its time to give daddy our hugs and kisses well see him tomorrow. Okay lets stand at the window and wave to him.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

Well, it may not be the most honest approach but what I've started doing is not being home when they get here. I figured that my presence was triggering DX's departure, so I will literally grab my purse and walk out of the house when they're on their way and make my way to Starbucks if need be in order to give them time together.

I came home yesterday at exactly dinner time and found them cuddled on the couch. DX, watching some football match, while DS played on his iPad. It was really nice to see them just being together.

We chatted for a split second, then I got started on dinner. DS came in to "wash his hands" (engage in fun water play in the kitchen sink) while I finished up dinner. When DX popped in to say he was leaving, DS actually waved a big grinning "bye bye!" They did their huggy kissy thing and DS went back to playing.

It. Was. Great.

I'm really hoping that DX sees how spending more time and creating a routine goodbye are key to making his departure bearable. Also, the "selling it" advice has been very helpful. "Daddy?" "Yeeeesss! You see Daddy tomorrow! Daddy's coming to see you tomorrow. Good job, buddy. Now, let's get ready for bed."

Thanks for the advice. We'll keep working on this. So far, so good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP here.

Well, it may not be the most honest approach but what I've started doing is not being home when they get here. I figured that my presence was triggering DX's departure, so I will literally grab my purse and walk out of the house when they're on their way and make my way to Starbucks if need be in order to give them time together.

I came home yesterday at exactly dinner time and found them cuddled on the couch. DX, watching some football match, while DS played on his iPad. It was really nice to see them just being together.

We chatted for a split second, then I got started on dinner. DS came in to "wash his hands" (engage in fun water play in the kitchen sink) while I finished up dinner. When DX popped in to say he was leaving, DS actually waved a big grinning "bye bye!" They did their huggy kissy thing and DS went back to playing.

It. Was. Great.

I'm really hoping that DX sees how spending more time and creating a routine goodbye are key to making his departure bearable. Also, the "selling it" advice has been very helpful. "Daddy?" "Yeeeesss! You see Daddy tomorrow! Daddy's coming to see you tomorrow. Good job, buddy. Now, let's get ready for bed."

Thanks for the advice. We'll keep working on this. So far, so good.

Hey, I think it's great that you found a way to test the theory. Glad it worked/is working!
FWIW, my son's been going back and forth between two houses for 7 years, and yeah, the routine where people say goodbye is important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is he not staying for dinner anymore? We separated when our kids were 5 y and 18 m. The split was especially hard on the oldest and separation after visitation was hard. Our routine was (and still is) that Ex came over for dinner and helped with bed and bath. I make dinner and clean up. The degree to which I participate in visit is based on my entirely ad hoc assessment of - can we not fight? does he seem overwhelmed by juggling the 2 kids, meal prep, keeping to bedtime, etc. I try to make the visits totally no pressure for him. We stick to routine days, but have flexibility to reschedule. After dinner and bath, he reads a book to them and then tucks them in. I go in to say good night after. In this way our routine mimics what happened in our house before. Only difference is that he is not there the next morning.

This sounds lame, like I'm totally catering to my Ex, but I do what I can (within reason) to make visitation painless for him. I don't bring up issues between us. It's all about him having a good time with kids.

Not OP - this is so what is needed in my situation for myriad reasons. I just find it extremely difficult. He was depressed for years, refused to treat it, then started an affair and got treatment. I am still very angry that the kids got situational depression and then he bailed. Any thoughts on how to get from here to where you are? Were you the one who initiated the split? I think that would make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not OP - this is so what is needed in my situation for myriad reasons. I just find it extremely difficult. He was depressed for years, refused to treat it, then started an affair and got treatment. I am still very angry that the kids got situational depression and then he bailed. Any thoughts on how to get from here to where you are? Were you the one who initiated the split? I think that would make a difference.

Hi, I am PP to which you referred. My ex had undiagnosed bipolar depression. Bipolar caused many compulsive sexual behaviors including multiple sexual infidelities. Depressive side include extreme social anxiety, drinking, irritability, self-doubt, etc. I demanded counseling when I found out about affairs, and as I found out about alcohol use, also asked for AA participation. Unfortunately, counselors and psychiatrists seen by my ex left him mis- or un-diagnosed and as a result prescribed meds and treatment that worsened bipolar and associated behavior, instead of improving. I kicked him out of house (after about 2.5 years) due to inability to stop affairs, skipping doc appointments and failure to go to AA. Although I initiated split, that was not at all how I wanted things to turn out. His proper diagnosis and medication did not come until about 6-9 months after I kicked him out. My understanding of the illness and how it drove his behavior took years.

During the affairs and immediately after the separation, I was, of course, tremendously angry (and hurt). Who wouldn't be? It baffled me that he couldn't see how his behavior was going to seriously hurt all of us, especially the kids. For the first 6 months, I tried to stick to a 50/50 custody plan where the kids lived with me but he came over 50% of awake time and had sole responsibility for them while I left the house. I was so angry I couldn't see him. At about the six month mark he said something (what I forget exactly) that gave me a light bulb moment -- he was never going to realize the impact of his behavior, so what was the point of being angry? In retrospect, I think that part of the human purpose of anger is to act as a red flag to those we are interacting with -- when you are angry you are sending a message that that particular set of issues (whatever is causing the anger) is really important to you and that you think the actions of the recipient of your anger are way over the boundary line. My ex was so ill (with bipolar depression) that his rationality was largely gone. I had every right to be angry with him, but as a tool to wake him up, anger was essentially useless, and probably even counter-productive in that he was so emotionally reactive due to the depression that he lacked the capacity to deal with the anger directed at him.

So, I stopped being angry. I was still tremendously sad about the end of the relationship, and frustrated at how unfair everything seemed, but I wasn't angry at him. (PEP anger management classes helped.) As time went on and I learned more about his illness (NAMI Family to Family classes, I'm not sick/I don't need help book, and many other books), I have actually developed sympathy for him (and me). Basically, it was not a reasonable hope that he would change his behavior absent proper diagnosis and treatment. And, it was also not a reasonable expectation that he had the capacity when he was ill to fight doctors and oversee his own treatment to ensure that it was proper. We are basically very lucky that he stumbled over someone who finally diagnosed and medicated him properly.

The sympathy and understanding I have developed have led me to the conclusion that his capacity to manage the kids is pretty limited and I should stop planning our lives as if he is going to live up to the expectations I would normally have for a divorced dad. If I need child care coverage, I don't count on him. If he's late, I'm not mad. If he chooses to spend an evening with his girlfriend instead of the kids, there's nothing we can do about it, and the reason he chooses that is mostly about his own mental state and not a reflection about how much he loves his kids. I try to focus on what he does do relatively consistently -- he shows up to see the kids, he pays child support, and he has a positive attitude toward the kids and shows them love in the way he knows how. At least he's doing the basics. I focus on getting the kids what they need thru other venues. Stable male role model? It's not Dad, it's Grandpa and uncle. Guy who will teach him guy things? Cub scouts. Sense of family? Build relationships with other family members and other families. Etc.

My kids are still too young to have discussed clearly their Dad's diagnosis with them, but we have discussed his feelings in general and his strengths/weaknesses, so that they don't personalize his behavior (or think that it is a model to follow). I try to point out his good qualities and encourage their love for him in a way that doesn't create expectations. While I'm sad that my kids have less than they deserve in terms of their Dad's parenting, I try to remind myself that less than perfect isn't awful. There are many worse things that could have happened in their lives. And, I think that strife in their lives is something that can contribute positively to their development. (I grew up in a intact family without a want and in some ways I think that kept me a child for too long.)

I would encourage you to learn as much as you can about depression, not just to understand what happened in the past, but also as a guide to the future, as depression is often chronic and relapsing and has a genetic component that makes your kids vulnerable to depression. Try not to take his behavior (the affair and divorce) personally, i.e. as a judgment that he didn't love or care about you and the kids. The split has a personal affect on you, but the fact that it happened is not a personal rejection of you. Affairs and sexual behavior are often a form of self-medication in depression. You have a right to be angry given everything that happened, but think about how effective that anger is. Is it helping you get what you want, or the next best available thing at least? If you want husband to participate more with kids despite divorce, anger at him can't be helping.

Of course, in my situation, it helps that ex has not permanently attached to any of his girlfriends and hasn't sought to expose kids to any of them. Since they never last, it hasn't been an issue (knock on wood). If I was trying to accommodate him and a rotating string of girls or an unstable new wife or if he was demanding physical custody/alone time, we would have serious, difficult to resolve problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not OP - this is so what is needed in my situation for myriad reasons. I just find it extremely difficult. He was depressed for years, refused to treat it, then started an affair and got treatment. I am still very angry that the kids got situational depression and then he bailed. Any thoughts on how to get from here to where you are? Were you the one who initiated the split? I think that would make a difference.

Hi, I am PP to which you referred. My ex had undiagnosed bipolar depression. Bipolar caused many compulsive sexual behaviors including multiple sexual infidelities. Depressive side include extreme social anxiety, drinking, irritability, self-doubt, etc. I demanded counseling when I found out about affairs, and as I found out about alcohol use, also asked for AA participation. Unfortunately, counselors and psychiatrists seen by my ex left him mis- or un-diagnosed and as a result prescribed meds and treatment that worsened bipolar and associated behavior, instead of improving. I kicked him out of house (after about 2.5 years) due to inability to stop affairs, skipping doc appointments and failure to go to AA. Although I initiated split, that was not at all how I wanted things to turn out. His proper diagnosis and medication did not come until about 6-9 months after I kicked him out. My understanding of the illness and how it drove his behavior took years.

During the affairs and immediately after the separation, I was, of course, tremendously angry (and hurt). Who wouldn't be? It baffled me that he couldn't see how his behavior was going to seriously hurt all of us, especially the kids. For the first 6 months, I tried to stick to a 50/50 custody plan where the kids lived with me but he came over 50% of awake time and had sole responsibility for them while I left the house. I was so angry I couldn't see him. At about the six month mark he said something (what I forget exactly) that gave me a light bulb moment -- he was never going to realize the impact of his behavior, so what was the point of being angry? In retrospect, I think that part of the human purpose of anger is to act as a red flag to those we are interacting with -- when you are angry you are sending a message that that particular set of issues (whatever is causing the anger) is really important to you and that you think the actions of the recipient of your anger are way over the boundary line. My ex was so ill (with bipolar depression) that his rationality was largely gone. I had every right to be angry with him, but as a tool to wake him up, anger was essentially useless, and probably even counter-productive in that he was so emotionally reactive due to the depression that he lacked the capacity to deal with the anger directed at him.

So, I stopped being angry. I was still tremendously sad about the end of the relationship, and frustrated at how unfair everything seemed, but I wasn't angry at him. (PEP anger management classes helped.) As time went on and I learned more about his illness (NAMI Family to Family classes, I'm not sick/I don't need help book, and many other books), I have actually developed sympathy for him (and me). Basically, it was not a reasonable hope that he would change his behavior absent proper diagnosis and treatment. And, it was also not a reasonable expectation that he had the capacity when he was ill to fight doctors and oversee his own treatment to ensure that it was proper. We are basically very lucky that he stumbled over someone who finally diagnosed and medicated him properly.

The sympathy and understanding I have developed have led me to the conclusion that his capacity to manage the kids is pretty limited and I should stop planning our lives as if he is going to live up to the expectations I would normally have for a divorced dad. If I need child care coverage, I don't count on him. If he's late, I'm not mad. If he chooses to spend an evening with his girlfriend instead of the kids, there's nothing we can do about it, and the reason he chooses that is mostly about his own mental state and not a reflection about how much he loves his kids. I try to focus on what he does do relatively consistently -- he shows up to see the kids, he pays child support, and he has a positive attitude toward the kids and shows them love in the way he knows how. At least he's doing the basics. I focus on getting the kids what they need thru other venues. Stable male role model? It's not Dad, it's Grandpa and uncle. Guy who will teach him guy things? Cub scouts. Sense of family? Build relationships with other family members and other families. Etc.

My kids are still too young to have discussed clearly their Dad's diagnosis with them, but we have discussed his feelings in general and his strengths/weaknesses, so that they don't personalize his behavior (or think that it is a model to follow). I try to point out his good qualities and encourage their love for him in a way that doesn't create expectations. While I'm sad that my kids have less than they deserve in terms of their Dad's parenting, I try to remind myself that less than perfect isn't awful. There are many worse things that could have happened in their lives. And, I think that strife in their lives is something that can contribute positively to their development. (I grew up in a intact family without a want and in some ways I think that kept me a child for too long.)

I would encourage you to learn as much as you can about depression, not just to understand what happened in the past, but also as a guide to the future, as depression is often chronic and relapsing and has a genetic component that makes your kids vulnerable to depression. Try not to take his behavior (the affair and divorce) personally, i.e. as a judgment that he didn't love or care about you and the kids. The split has a personal affect on you, but the fact that it happened is not a personal rejection of you. Affairs and sexual behavior are often a form of self-medication in depression. You have a right to be angry given everything that happened, but think about how effective that anger is. Is it helping you get what you want, or the next best available thing at least? If you want husband to participate more with kids despite divorce, anger at him can't be helping.

Of course, in my situation, it helps that ex has not permanently attached to any of his girlfriends and hasn't sought to expose kids to any of them. Since they never last, it hasn't been an issue (knock on wood). If I was trying to accommodate him and a rotating string of girls or an unstable new wife or if he was demanding physical custody/alone time, we would have serious, difficult to resolve problems.

Wow. Not OP, but as someone who is in the middle of a marriage that sounds somewhat like yours (no infidelities- at least that I know about- but problems with substance abuse), I admire your strength and rationality. If our situation comes down to this, I hope I can handle my husband as well as you handle yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not OP - this is so what is needed in my situation for myriad reasons. I just find it extremely difficult. He was depressed for years, refused to treat it, then started an affair and got treatment. I am still very angry that the kids got situational depression and then he bailed. Any thoughts on how to get from here to where you are? Were you the one who initiated the split? I think that would make a difference.

Hi, I am PP to which you referred. My ex had undiagnosed bipolar depression. Bipolar caused many compulsive sexual behaviors including multiple sexual infidelities. Depressive side include extreme social anxiety, drinking, irritability, self-doubt, etc. I demanded counseling when I found out about affairs, and as I found out about alcohol use, also asked for AA participation. Unfortunately, counselors and psychiatrists seen by my ex left him mis- or un-diagnosed and as a result prescribed meds and treatment that worsened bipolar and associated behavior, instead of improving. I kicked him out of house (after about 2.5 years) due to inability to stop affairs, skipping doc appointments and failure to go to AA. Although I initiated split, that was not at all how I wanted things to turn out. His proper diagnosis and medication did not come until about 6-9 months after I kicked him out. My understanding of the illness and how it drove his behavior took years.

During the affairs and immediately after the separation, I was, of course, tremendously angry (and hurt). Who wouldn't be? It baffled me that he couldn't see how his behavior was going to seriously hurt all of us, especially the kids. For the first 6 months, I tried to stick to a 50/50 custody plan where the kids lived with me but he came over 50% of awake time and had sole responsibility for them while I left the house. I was so angry I couldn't see him. At about the six month mark he said something (what I forget exactly) that gave me a light bulb moment -- he was never going to realize the impact of his behavior, so what was the point of being angry? In retrospect, I think that part of the human purpose of anger is to act as a red flag to those we are interacting with -- when you are angry you are sending a message that that particular set of issues (whatever is causing the anger) is really important to you and that you think the actions of the recipient of your anger are way over the boundary line. My ex was so ill (with bipolar depression) that his rationality was largely gone. I had every right to be angry with him, but as a tool to wake him up, anger was essentially useless, and probably even counter-productive in that he was so emotionally reactive due to the depression that he lacked the capacity to deal with the anger directed at him.

So, I stopped being angry. I was still tremendously sad about the end of the relationship, and frustrated at how unfair everything seemed, but I wasn't angry at him. (PEP anger management classes helped.) As time went on and I learned more about his illness (NAMI Family to Family classes, I'm not sick/I don't need help book, and many other books), I have actually developed sympathy for him (and me). Basically, it was not a reasonable hope that he would change his behavior absent proper diagnosis and treatment. And, it was also not a reasonable expectation that he had the capacity when he was ill to fight doctors and oversee his own treatment to ensure that it was proper. We are basically very lucky that he stumbled over someone who finally diagnosed and medicated him properly.

The sympathy and understanding I have developed have led me to the conclusion that his capacity to manage the kids is pretty limited and I should stop planning our lives as if he is going to live up to the expectations I would normally have for a divorced dad. If I need child care coverage, I don't count on him. If he's late, I'm not mad. If he chooses to spend an evening with his girlfriend instead of the kids, there's nothing we can do about it, and the reason he chooses that is mostly about his own mental state and not a reflection about how much he loves his kids. I try to focus on what he does do relatively consistently -- he shows up to see the kids, he pays child support, and he has a positive attitude toward the kids and shows them love in the way he knows how. At least he's doing the basics. I focus on getting the kids what they need thru other venues. Stable male role model? It's not Dad, it's Grandpa and uncle. Guy who will teach him guy things? Cub scouts. Sense of family? Build relationships with other family members and other families. Etc.

My kids are still too young to have discussed clearly their Dad's diagnosis with them, but we have discussed his feelings in general and his strengths/weaknesses, so that they don't personalize his behavior (or think that it is a model to follow). I try to point out his good qualities and encourage their love for him in a way that doesn't create expectations. While I'm sad that my kids have less than they deserve in terms of their Dad's parenting, I try to remind myself that less than perfect isn't awful. There are many worse things that could have happened in their lives. And, I think that strife in their lives is something that can contribute positively to their development. (I grew up in a intact family without a want and in some ways I think that kept me a child for too long.)

I would encourage you to learn as much as you can about depression, not just to understand what happened in the past, but also as a guide to the future, as depression is often chronic and relapsing and has a genetic component that makes your kids vulnerable to depression. Try not to take his behavior (the affair and divorce) personally, i.e. as a judgment that he didn't love or care about you and the kids. The split has a personal affect on you, but the fact that it happened is not a personal rejection of you. Affairs and sexual behavior are often a form of self-medication in depression. You have a right to be angry given everything that happened, but think about how effective that anger is. Is it helping you get what you want, or the next best available thing at least? If you want husband to participate more with kids despite divorce, anger at him can't be helping.

Of course, in my situation, it helps that ex has not permanently attached to any of his girlfriends and hasn't sought to expose kids to any of them. Since they never last, it hasn't been an issue (knock on wood). If I was trying to accommodate him and a rotating string of girls or an unstable new wife or if he was demanding physical custody/alone time, we would have serious, difficult to resolve problems.

I am a new poster who is going through many of these same issues with my husband. I am living inside a major crisis right now. Your post is the most important and meaningful post I've ever read on this site. Thank you so so much for sharing your story. I don't know if I'll ever get to where you are, but I feel a little hopeful now. I just wish I knew you in real life.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Anonymous]

11:34 here. PP you say, " I wish I knew you in real life." The thing is you can know me in real life -- I am that family member who might surprise you with my support if only you told me what was going on, that person from AA support group who has been there and learned something, that 4th therapist you tried that finally "got it," that friend who was not your BFF but listened non-judgmentally when you let a little bit slip, etc.

What I'm trying to say is please get connected in person, especially with other people who have been where you are now. Where to find this depends on what the problem is. If substance abuse is part of the problem try Al-Anon. If bipolar is an issue, get on the support listserv at www.bpso.org -- you will find many of "me" there. Get a therapist for yourself, not to self-examine/self-blame, but to manage your life with DH's issues. Read books, take classes, find experts, educate yourself. Think about it all and take what seems to apply to your situation and adapt it for you.

For a good 2 years I isolated myself dealing with these issues only with DH and his doctors and our therapists. Unfortunately, I waited until I kicked him out before I started to tell select people what was going on in my life. When I did, I was shocked by the amazing support I got. I didn't get to where I am by myself. (And I'm still not where I want to be.)

You will come out the other side of this crisis. When you do, pay it forward.

Hugs to you.

[Anonymous]

I'm the poster who asked how to get from where I am to where you are. I am having a really hard time at the moment and can't thank you enough. Truly.

My kids are doing a bit better and I take a lot of solace in that. Ex is very committed in his way and I have to come to terms with that.

Best to all struggling with these situations.